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Old August 23, 2009, 03:28 AM   #26
BlackFeather
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Aside from my last rant/post...The OP did a decent job in my opinion, though it may have been safer to get in your truck and pull out of the parking space before answering him. I know there may be a chance that what I said would have been impossible, but I dont know all of what was going on. Just a thought.
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Old August 23, 2009, 10:02 AM   #27
Glenn E. Meyer
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About old men with knives. I was an expert witness in a case. Here's the deal. Three young studs get into a fender bender with an older man. He is stoned. They get out of the car and one stud (football, tough, big, manly) goes up to the grizzled and stoned old guy to berate him in his righteous studness.

Old guy pulls out a paring knife - the little short thing you use to cut up veggies. He sticks it into Studmeister's chest - who proceeds to drop stone cold dead. Geezer hit a sweet spot and cut a major vessel.

Feet - the first defense for the thinking man - do your stuff.
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Old August 23, 2009, 01:08 PM   #28
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Reminds me of an incident that happened to me. It happened in my company parking lot which at the time was in a bad area of town. I was transferring equipment from my company vehicle to my personal car after quitting time. I noticed a rough looking character coming down the sidewalk toward our gate. Something told me he had me targeted. Sure enough he turns into our gate and comes toward me. I was carrying a .32 ACP Davis Derringer in my pocket. I would have liked to have had something more potent on me but it meant my job if anybody could detect that I was carrying. That little derringer simply disappeared in my pocket. Anyway when I got the feeling that he had me targeted, I took the derringer out of my pocket and pushed off the cross bolt safety. With my thumb curled around the half cocked hammer and my finger on the trigger, I put both hands on my hips and turned to face him. The derringer was completely concealed by my hand so that he could not see it. As he approached me, he said in a rough voice "Know what I want!" I was looking him in the eye and answered in just as rough a voice "No, what!" This seemed to set him back. It wasn't what he expected. He stuttered a bit then lost the rough tone to his voice and asked if I could give him 50 cents to get something to eat. Continuing to look him in the eye with my hands on my hips (concealing the derringer), I told him no. He then started talking almost crazy talk. He told me that he could tell where a car was going by looking at its license plate. He said that the Federal government was paying him $1,000 a month to spot drug cars for them. That immediately made me wonder why he would need 50 cents from me to get something to eat. Three times he acted like he was leaving but turned around again. I think if I had reached into the company vehicle to get another piece of equipment, he would have been all over me. Or if I had put my hand into my pocket to get money when he asked for it. However the whole time he was there I stood with my hands on my hips staring him in the eye. I'm no tough guy but I am 6' 1" tall and weigh over 200 pounds (need to lose some of it!) When he finally did leave, I stared at the back of his head till he was out our gate and well down the sidewalk. Only then did I finish what I was doing while keeping a watch in case he came back.

I did not have to use or even show the gun, but I think having it in my hand instantly ready gave me the confidence to stand up to him. I am confident that his original intent was to mug me if I didn't give him my money voluntarily. If he had tried anything it would have taken about one second to put two .32 Silvertips in his face. I think that would have worked a sufficient attitude adjustment on him.

Those people are predators just like any wild animal and like any predator they prey on the weak and vulnerable. If I had shown any weakness I believe he would have carried through with his original plan. Also when I get one of those feelings in the future, I will trust it.
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Old August 23, 2009, 01:42 PM   #29
Pbearperry
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I just tell them I am sorry but I am out of work.Usually they turn around and say Good Luck.It's smart to be aware,but I feel too many of us are making too big a deal out of these things.
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Old August 23, 2009, 02:04 PM   #30
thawntex
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Quote:
Those people are predators just like any wild animal and like any predator they prey on the weak and vulnerable. If I had shown any weakness I believe he would have carried through with his original plan. Also when I get one of those feelings in the future, I will trust it.
Perhaps this is true with certain individuals, but not with panhandlers in general. How do you define "those people"? Certainly you don't mean that every bum on the street compares to a lion or tiger, right?

If I had to make an analogy, I'd say that bums are more like squirrels. But I digress.

These stories are usually very anticlimactic. Of course I could get mugged someday, but 100% of my numerous panhandler encounters have ended just like many of the stories here. I decline to donate, bum goes away. No need for me to post a fantasy about a potential robbery that was never going to happen in the first place.

I don't mean to downplay the very real threat of mugging, but I think that a considerable disparity exists between panhandlers and muggers. Some of these stories deal with simple begging that happens all over the world every day, yet they are portrayed as these "Thank God I had my gun" moments.

Of course, it's up to you to determine the level of threat in every "can you spare a dime" moment. Experience has taught me that very few of these encounters warrant any sort of excitement.

-T
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Old August 23, 2009, 02:06 PM   #31
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I just tell them I am sorry but I am out of work.Usually they turn around and say Good Luck.It's smart to be aware,but I feel too many of us are making too big a deal out of these things.
Yeah, my point exactly. You just said it a lot more succinctly than I did.

-T
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Old August 23, 2009, 05:35 PM   #32
Win73
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I wasn't implying that all "bums" are predators. But I definitely felt at the time and still do that this guy was. What he said to me as he approached me and the tone of voice he used until I threw it right back at him. Just his overall manner. Also the fact that he pretended to be leaving three times before he actually did. These all convinced me. I believe he was a predator. This was a bad area of town. Just half a block down the street someone had been murdered and left behind a building.

I have been panhandled by "bums" before. Even have helped someone occasionally. This fellow just didn't fit the, for lack of a better word, profile of a "bum" or someone just needing temporary help.

Even though I didn't have to use or even show the gun, I was and still am glad that I had it instantly available. Those who are predators can detect weakness and vulnerability. I think he could detect the confidence that having the gun gave me and just decided to find an easier target.
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Old August 23, 2009, 06:50 PM   #33
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...Yeah, a football player tackles people with pads on, I never look at any football players and go "hes tough, bet he could stop guy with a knife". There is a difference in thinking you could stop someone because of your arrogance, and having simple confidence that through practice, experience, and technique you can disarm the situation, and/or the opponent. We have always had a rule book, and the first rule to self defense is "run".
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Old August 23, 2009, 07:30 PM   #34
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Quote:
The interview phase always begins with social transgressions to see how the prospective mark will react.
I agree.

Not even the 'ol "you got the time" or some other common interview starter while Pandering Willy sizes you up.

Redhawk lost the first part of the battle as soon as he held up when ordered to do so.

In Farnum's class we were taught to memorize such phrases as "can't help you" (as we keep going), and "don't move, drop your weapon (real loud to attract attention).
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Old August 23, 2009, 07:47 PM   #35
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Redhawk,

I had a similar situation about 10-12 years ago. Happened in the parking deck of a large mall in Durham, NC.

It was near Christmas and I had a couple of bags in my hand, presents I'd bought for my fiance and a couple of other folks. The mall was a posted no-carry zone so I'd left my gun behind in the car, in a nylon holster I had rigged to the bottom of my seat for just that purpose. It was kinda up and out of the way, so I thought there may be a chance that a smash and grab guy would miss seeing it.

Anyway I come out of the mall, walk to my car and lean across to put the bags in my passenger seat. I was driving a '91 Chevy Cavalier convertible at the time and my back window was fubar'd. Couldn't see through it for the fogging that was typical of the cheap crap tops they put on them.

I kinda get this feeling that somebody's coming up behind me and at first I thought it may be the passenger of the car parked beside me and I'm blocking the way in to their car. As I pull my head out to see what's going on the guy is even with my trunk and startles like he's been caught in the act. His right hand is out of view and he starts stammering. When he startled, I dropped into a crouch and put my hand on my weapon, under my seat. Didn't draw.....

He's stammering that he needs gas money to get back to VA and he was just robbed in that parking lot yesterday "RIGHT OVER THERE!!!" yelling and pointing behind me. I notice the guy has a car parked right behind me, blocking my car in with an accomplice (I can't think of this situation in anything other than those terms....) behind the wheel.

At this point he's within 5 feet of me, with his right hand out of view behind him on something. I'm crouched with my left hand out of view on a 9mm. He's repeating that "It was right over there, look!" and I said to him in as loud a voice as I could muster "STOP!!!. GO BACK TO YOUR VEHICLE, SLOWLY. I HAVE NOTHING FOR YOU THAT YOU WANT". At that point the lightbulb went on and he took his hand off of whatever he had and backed away. I stayed in that ready crouch until he was back in his car and they were gone. Then I got in my car and got a serious case of the shakes as the adrenaline started to wear off.

I've run through that situation over and over and I'm convinced he had a knife. I'm also convinced that had he been determined to stab me and take what I had, I would have been in trouble (and he wouldn't have got much!). He was literally 5-6 feet away at best and my gun was holstered. I may have escaped with only a cut or one or two stab wounds, but odds are I would have been badly hurt if he'd know what he was doing and was determined to do it.

Had I seen him coming I wouldn't have let him get that close, but I let my guard down while putting my purchases away. I'll never do that again. Now if my door is open, I keep the shopping cart between me and the end of my vehicle. When I can I park further away from the store, where it'll likely be less crowded, with a good chance of my truck/car having no one parked beside it when I come out. That way I'm not trapped in that V created by the door and vehicle.

Just thought I'd share............

..........Oh, and I've got many years of MA training too.........I'd have kept the bat...........
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Old August 24, 2009, 12:57 AM   #36
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Quote:
Redhawk lost the first part of the battle as soon as he held up when ordered to do so.
Yeah... I'm normally better about that; must have been off that day.
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Old August 24, 2009, 10:53 AM   #37
Glenn E. Meyer
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One would be hard put to justify shooting a bum, even if they grabbed your arm.

Might I suggest that an OC spray might be a good thing to have as compared to standing there, cocking a gun.

One should also study up on the use of force in your state.

But the right attitude and movement - as Tam suggests, usually carries the day.
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Old August 24, 2009, 11:06 AM   #38
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You're right Glenn...

I wasn't amped up so much to shoot the guy as I was to knock him backwards, then possibly draw and shoot based on his reaction to getting knocked back.

There is a wide spectrum of justifiable force but I'm not going to carry something to match every potential level of justifiable force.

The pistol is my peak of force out and about in town, but it's possible to justifiably need more force than a single pistol... The LA Riots being one example.

Neglecting to acknowledge a person is the bottom threshold of force. Used often by me, but failed to use this last encounter.

I don't trust pepper spray or mace. I see it as a confrontational use of force that is still gonna get me with assault charges if I fail to justify use in the eyes of the law, but more likely to fail than a solid strike to a vulnerable spot with hands or feet (same assault charges, higher standard of success in protecting me).

Lots of people wear sunglasses here in AZ and the wind can be an interesting thing here. I'd just as soon not get backsplash off his glasses or wind blowing OC spray back in my face.
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Old August 24, 2009, 11:11 AM   #39
Glenn E. Meyer
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OC sprays have the advantage of some distance response. They also have a distance threat usage which is not as legally troublesome as taking out a firearm.

Despite the anecdotes of the crazed biker on drugs, DOJ reports suggest about an 85 to 95% success rate.

Also, if you strike someone and knock them down or discombobulate them - might I suggest that gives you a heard start and run! Why wait to see what they do?
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Old August 24, 2009, 11:18 AM   #40
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Also, if you strike someone and knock them down or discombobulate them - might I suggest that gives you a heard start and run! Why wait to see what they do?
'Cuz I was wedged in with my door open. I'd have to push past or jump over the bum to get out by foot, or close the door to the truck (which means getting closer to the bum.

Leaving by means of vehicle would mean getting in, closing the door, fishing my keys out of my pocket, starting the car and putting it into gear. Lots of steps. Lots of time to allow someone to close on me while I'm in the car.

I was in the strongest position that I left available to myself. No real way out other than winning or facing down the threat. I did the latter while preparing for the former.

I realize now I limited my responses by being caught off-guard and allowing a breach of my personal space.
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