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Old August 20, 2009, 08:40 PM   #26
ChileVerde1
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A while back when some dirtbag in Polk County, Florida who got pulled over in a routine traffic stop ended up executing the deputy who stopped him. The deputy was shot eight times, including once behind his right ear at close range. Another deputy was wounded and a police dog killed. A state wide manhunt ensued. The low-life was found hiding in a wooded area with his gun. SWAT team officers opened fire and hit the guy 68 times. Naturally, the media went nuts and asked why they shot him 68 times. Polk County Sheriff Grady Judd, told the Orlando Sentinel, “Because that’s all the ammunition we had.” Talk about an all-time classic answer. Gotta admire the man for being honest.

God bless all LEO's that have to take a life in the line of duty. Sometimes the worst part of it is not the actual shooting but the scrutiny you recieve afterward from everybody. Monday morning QB's will say "couldn't they have used non lethals or shot him in the leg or something?" I've heard it all! Those poor guys will get it from all sides; their own IA, the public, the media, yes even some of their own colleagues will even chip in. They'll be called racists, stormtroopers, etc... by those in the Ivory tower's that have the luxury to sit back, reflect, and opine on their actions. It's been my experience that those who bash Cops do so because they've been on the wrong side of the law at some time or another!
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Old August 21, 2009, 09:31 AM   #27
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Quote:
It's been my experience that those who bash Cops do so because they've been on the wrong side of the law at some time or another!
True, there are some who have a hidden or personal agenda or even a political agenda but I think one of the problems is that good cops suffer because of what bad cops do. Cops are human beings and they make mistakes but there are a few who are tyrannts with a badge and those few make it tougher for the real cops to do their jobs properly and without undue public scrutiny. We tend to naively ignore the warning signs until it affects us personally.

The biggest problem though is that too many of us are unwilling to address quality of life issues in our communities that when left to fester will ultimately lead to tragic situations such as this one. We expect the police to somehow magically be able to peacefully quell a situation that we have allowed through neglect to reach it's plateau.

Another problem is that we say we support the police and give lip service, that is until we're stopped and ticketed by one for doing 60 mph in a 25 mph zone with children playing nearby or for driving erratically while talking on the cell phone. We make comments such as: "why are you harrassing me, you should be out there chasing drug dealers" when our irresponsible and hypocritical actions are just as dangerous to innocent life as the drug dealer's.

Last edited by jbrown50; August 21, 2009 at 09:39 AM.
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Old August 21, 2009, 12:35 PM   #28
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In my mind it's not the number of rounds fired, or rounds hitting, that matters. It's what the person being shot at does once the shooting begins.

As far as I'm concerned, it is "shoot until the threat is stopped" or all the shooting you do will just **** off the person you are shooting. If it means that you shoot the person to the ground to ensure the threat is stopped, then so be it. At least you will be alive to deal with any legal repercussions that may arise.

In the case at hand my mind says the cops were also thinking "shoot him to the ground" as the way to assure the threat was stopped.

Note that none of what I post has to do with whether or not the shooting was justified, necessary, apopropriate or excessive. It is merely one person's thoughts on when you decide to stop shooting.

stay safe.

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Old August 21, 2009, 12:39 PM   #29
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Just goes to show they're not death-rays. Also, if you take a look at the autopsy report, only 2 shots were anywhere near COM....

Now repreat after me...

Placement is king, Placement is king, Placement is king....
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Old August 21, 2009, 09:02 PM   #30
Deaf Smith
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First off, I presume all six cops fired.

59 rounds 43 hits.

That's just about 10 shots per cop.

Now in real life, when someone raises a gun toward you, you don't say, "mine", like vollyball. Each of the cops reacted. Each fired pretty much at the same time. All fired till the BG dropped.

Yep, 59 shots, no suprise. 43 hits, hey, that's good shoot'en.

Does anyone here really think in combat one GI says, "my shot', and opens up on the machinegun nest? No, right?

It was not excessive force for EACH of the cops. They did what they did cause they knew they had to stop the guy with the rifle. Ten shots can be shot in just a second or two, before the BG even hits the round, by someone who can shoot. And from that hit rate, I think those cops could shoot.

Simple as that.

And as Randy Harris said, "People who point guns at the police tend to get shot. People who point guns at a lot of police tend to get shot a lot."
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Old August 22, 2009, 12:27 AM   #31
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Quote:
Deaf Smith

First off, I presume all six cops fired.

59 rounds 43 hits.

That's just about 10 shots per cop.

Now in real life, when someone raises a gun toward you, you don't say, "mine", like vollyball. Each of the cops reacted. Each fired pretty much at the same time. All fired till the BG dropped.

Yep, 59 shots, no suprise. 43 hits, hey, that's good shoot'en.
They may have a hit rate of about 37%. Only 2 wounds were center-of-mass. There may have been as few as 22 hits, if it is assumed that the wounds on the anterior body were entry wounds; and those on the posterior body exit wounds. There were a total of 43 wounds which counted both entrance and exit wounds. Most of those 22 possible hits were below the waist. See the preliminary autopsy report.

Poor bullet placement for most of the shots that hit.
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Old August 22, 2009, 05:37 AM   #32
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43 hits of 45 Auto would have turned a block of ballistic gelatin into mush. But people aren't made out of Jello. Stopping power=psychology. If he's determined to continue functioning, just poking holes is not a good way to stop him.
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Old August 22, 2009, 12:30 PM   #33
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I can imagine that the cops were tense and the adrenaline levels were high. But 43 .45acp hits? Seems like a blatant case of overkill.
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Old August 22, 2009, 02:12 PM   #34
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Howdy-
Would like to say right off the top that I HAVE worn the uniform.
I CANNOT say I am at all surprised about the statement that cops bring deadly force with them and are PREDISPOSED to use it- Many shall do so as their First Choice! Given a chance, many want to. I have seen this mentality first hand ; it is ugly. " 43 wounds with some of them in his chest would indicate all shots were not while he was lying down." How so? Is it impossible to shoot a man in the chest if he is on the ground with six cops emptying their guns into him?
It sure SOUNDS excessive- sounds like the "majic number" of rounds is "how many do you have?"
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Old August 22, 2009, 09:10 PM   #35
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Poor bullet placement for most of the shots that hit.
People say stuff like this a lot, but it oversimplifies the nature of the target. You don't just place your bullets on the target. It is a dynamic moving entity. Plus, the optimal portion of the target isn't always what is available.

Quote:
I can imagine that the cops were tense and the adrenaline levels were high. But 43 .45acp hits? Seems like a blatant case of overkill.
Nope. You just have 6 individual cops firing until the threat was negated. At no time were any of the cops counting the number of hits and calling for a ceasefire because the pre-ordained proper number of hits had been attained. No such criterion exists. If the suspect would have collapsed sooner, the cops would have stopped shooting sooner.
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Old August 22, 2009, 09:44 PM   #36
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How many times should police shoot someone? Until the threat stops. If that's 5 good, 59 good, 559 so what.
59 rounds? It's a bogus point. As DNaught pointed out, each cop is responsible for the rounds he/she fired and not those fired by other cops. If shots were fired until the individual was incapacitated, then each cop followed his training. Each cop involved fired about 10 rds., and isn't accountable for the other 49 rds fired by someone else.

Agreed that marksmanship wasn't exactly stellar, though the man who wanted to be shot suffered 43 hits--- which represents reasonably good marksmanship based on police shootings.
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Old August 22, 2009, 09:46 PM   #37
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Drunk and armed??? Sounds like "terminal stupidity" to me. Never get blitzed and start waving guns around. Social events like that end up with somebody landing on the coroner's table full of bullet holes. It doesn't matter what color, religion or anything that you are. It's nature's way of thinning out the gene pool.
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Old August 22, 2009, 10:10 PM   #38
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Overkill???

I saw this term used.
How dead was this guy?
Was he completely dead or just a little dead?
I think cops should only shoot until the suspects are just barely dead.
Not overly dead but dead.
I also think they should wait until the suspecttry to shoot them like Matt Dillon did on Gunsmoke
Seems like six cops made the same decision...This guy needs to be shot and shot until he drops.
If the perp didn't want to be shot at 59 times he should have dropped his weapon or hit the ground faster.

Man lying on ground with rifle or sniper in prone postion.
distraught drunk young man or guy who shot veteran cop who hesitated to fire weapon.
It is all about spin and timing.

Last edited by bcarver; August 22, 2009 at 10:41 PM.
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Old August 23, 2009, 02:30 AM   #39
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59 rounds? Geezuz! A cop, up here, fired 19 rounds, last week, and missed with every one. Justifiable discharge, while running after the criminal twit, according to the news reports. Bullets were sent all over a residential neighbourhood. Hit houses, garages, etc.
Our cops are a good bunch of people, but they can't shoot.
"...or rounds hitting, that matters..." Except that most people think that cops are trained to use the kit well. They're not. If you're issued a firearm to defend the populace, you should be competent with the equipment. Most are not. The days of cops being shooters before they get hired are long gone.
"...Where the heck were the AR's?..." Line cops don't get a rifle.
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Old August 23, 2009, 06:10 AM   #40
JohnLaird
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1. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't most shootings happen when you mix drugs/alcohol or mental illness with guns? 2-4 hours of annual training is a joke.
2. Most shootings ARE very fluid and things happen very fast. They should have been trained to deal with it.
3. Those cops could have easily killed a bystander with that much shooting.
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Old August 23, 2009, 07:27 AM   #41
PT111
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Quote:
I saw this term used.
How dead was this guy?
Was he completely dead or just a little dead?
I think cops should only shoot until the suspects are just barely dead.
Not overly dead but dead.
I also think they should wait until the suspecttry to shoot them like Matt Dillon did on Gunsmoke
Is that like being just a little bit pregnant? Matt Dillon was so much faster than anyone else he could wait on the other guy like a lot of gun carriers of today. Cops normally don't get enough training to have that advantage.
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Old August 23, 2009, 09:33 AM   #42
Rich Keagy
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I thought the cop rule went something like this: "When one of us (cops) starts shooting, all the cops empty their guns into the threat." Also, "A cop who doesn't observe this rule is an unreliable partner."
That's just what I've heard.
I neglected to add that I am not a law enforcement officer.

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Old August 23, 2009, 09:50 AM   #43
ilbob
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If someone is trying to kill me and I have a gun in hand, I probably will keep shooting until I perceive the guy is no longer a threat. I cannot fault the officers involved for the number of shots fired.

Whether it was a justified shooting gets decided by colleagues of those who did the shooting. In fact, they announced their decision on that point pdq.

Quote:
I thought the cop rule went something like this: "When one of us (cops) starts shooting, all the cops empty their guns into the threat." Also, "A cop who doesn't observe this rule is an unreliable partner."
That's just what I've heard.
Its not far from the truth. But it is not just cop culture. It is human nature. If someone is shooting you feel the need to do so too. Especially once your adrenaline gets going and you are on a hair trigger.

The reality is that if it happened the way the police tell the story, is the guy was not rational and trying to reason with someone who is not rational is not likely to be successful. At some point the cops may have had little choice in the matter.

One might argue about their tactics, or the way they choose to handle the situation, but once it started to go down, its tough to see it going any other way than how it did.
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Old August 23, 2009, 10:14 AM   #44
verti89
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"3. Those cops could have easily killed a bystander with that much shooting. "

I'm sorry but bystanders who are watching six cops face of with an armed crazy person? Kind of like watching a train wreck from on the train isn't it? I am not saying they deserve to be shot but if people start pulling out guns and im not one of them...i will be vacating the premises.
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Old August 23, 2009, 12:07 PM   #45
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Here's a few thoughts for those without any LE background. When you get a call on something like this everybody who is remotely close to the scene runs hot to get there. Adrenalin pumping like mad. Generally speaking the first to respond will be the primary officer. Of course a supervisor will be enroute too, sometimes, but not always, he will take the role of PO when he arrives. Depending on the call.
6 regular patrol officers do not train together like a SWAT team will. I can only imagine the amount of confusion and chaos that might have gone on before the shooting began. One of the biggest clusterf#### I've ever seen happened at a multi agency felony stop. Poor sucker, armed robbery suspect, at gunpoint by 4-5 officers and each of them telling him to do something different. "Hands in the air," Hands behind your head." "On the ground." 'Don't move." "Turn around slowly." "Get on your knees." "Stand up, sit down, fight fight fight"

Each officer at the OP had a different perspective, different experience, different gun handling ability, and different mindset in how they intended to deal with such a situation. I seriously doubt that any one of them could tell you who fired the first shot. But I will bet that since all of them fired in unison, they all saw the same thing. One might have reacted a hair faster than the others.

The notion that every officer has to empty his gun is not completely farfetched but actually not completely true in my experience. I backed up a situation once that ended in an OIS. The guy and his partner emptied their guns into a car and wounded the BG. I didn't have a clear shot at the BG so I didn't shoot. It kind of reminded me of recon by fire but I didn't think I needed to add to the suppressive fire. This particular BG never fired a shot. He did pull a gun from under the seat however. Nobody said a thing about it to me. The partner caught hell from the rest about 15 rounds fired and no hits, though.
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