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Old July 31, 2009, 10:50 PM   #1
Xyas
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Witnessed what I believe was a carjacking.

I went to Meijer today (it's a store in Michigan, little more expensive than Wal-mart). It was 10 o'clock at night. As I was pulling in to the parking lot I saw a man with a cell phone in one hand, with his other hand held sideways (like the way a gangster holds his gun). He wasn't holding in this hand, however, and was backing up from the car. At this moment I looked and saw a security officer running out of Meijer with a cell phone in his hand.

I pulled away, and turned to have my car facing the action going on. I watched for a little bit and saw the car pull away fast, and this is when I got out of my car to head into Meijer. I could hear the security guard on the phone giving the location of the car, what streets he turned onto, where they were heading, etc.

So I wasn't sure if it was a carjacking or not...something happened, but the security guard being outside so fast made me think something happened in the store. Really it's not my place to know what happened but it got me thinking of a few things.

1st, my assessment of this situation. While this wasn't as...intense as some of the other situations posted on the board, it raised some questions for me. I always try to have some situational awareness at all times, this helped me notice the person with his odd arm positioning and backing up away from the car while still facing it. I should've probably parked farther away or drive away and come back later. Driving away, however, could have put me on the path of this car and I could have put myself in danger by doing this (any input on this?).

It also made me think about what I would do, if I did actually see a carjacking taking place. Say I'm stopped behind a car and someone goes to the car in front of me and tries to carjack them. What would your response be if you were carrying? What would your response be if you weren't carrying? Would there be a difference between the two? I always make an effort to try to be able to turn around the car in front of me if I need to, but am not sure what else would be the appropriate course of action (besides calling 911, of course).

Thanks for any thoughts, input, and opinions. They are all greatly appreciated.
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Old July 31, 2009, 11:33 PM   #2
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First rule....

....keep yourself safe.

I put the question to my brother the cop, "What do you do if you're off-duty and see 'X' happening.' He says standard procedure is keep yourself safe and be a good witness. My hit would be to get on the phone to 911 and/or take notes for later. The question of whether to react to keep others safe boils down (as always) to your personal moral imperative.
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Old July 31, 2009, 11:38 PM   #3
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What you witnessed may have been simple shoplifting. With 1 or 2 security guards on scene, there'd be no need to jump in the middle of it, armed or not. While they often do more, a security guard's purpose is to observe and report- a lot of retailers don't want them to go hands on & risk a lawsuit for infringing on a criminal's "rights".

Carjackings take place in a matter of a scant few seconds. If you're the victim of a car jacking, you'd be very fortunate to have time to draw your weapon before you were dragged out & conked or shot. As a witness to one, you most likely wouldn't have time to do anything to prevent it from taking place & you'd only endanger someone by showing up too late & trying to stop it.

I know, we'd all like to think that we could do something to help in a time of need. But, it takes time to assess a situation & you durn sure don't want to go off half cocked and help the wrong party (or hurt the right party). Situations like these have to be handled on a case by case basis, and you don't want to be responsible for an escalation that causes harm or lose of life to an innocent.
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Old August 1, 2009, 05:56 AM   #4
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Everyone who has posted on this thread has put forth good and valid points. No two situations are the same,neither are the proper responses the same. Vigilent situational awareness at all times is an absolute. When you see what may be a crime taking place you are aware of only so much information,in a matter of seconds you must size up the situation and plan your reaction.
Now heres where alot of people will disagree with me...
Having a CCW and carryin' a gun is not just for self-defense alone,you have a duty as a citizen to safegaurd the lives of others who for whatever reason can't defend themselves. That means at times putting yourself in harms way,but that is something you must accept. The police are not our personal bodygaurds,and they can't be everywhere at once to assist everyone(no disrespect to the police mind you). If your additude is "Its not my problem" or merely sit back,watch the crime happen and report the details later,you are showing "indifference" to those in need;and that in my opinion makes you little better then the scumbag who comited the crime.

Those who have the ability to take action have the responsability to do so.

Feel free to disagree,but this is what I believe.

In no way is it my intention that this post inspire others to go out and take the law into their own hands,it is just my opinion.
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Old August 1, 2009, 06:28 AM   #5
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Quote:
Having a CCW and carryin' a gun is not just for self-defense alone...

If your additude is "Its not my problem" or merely sit back,watch the crime happen and report the details later,you are showing "indifference" to those in need;and that in my opinion makes you little better then the scumbag who comited the crime.
I am guessing that you never actually took a CCW class? Maybe Oregon doesn't require one, but I am not going to waste my time looking it up since I don't live there.

One of the things they teach in these classes besides situational awareness, handgun familiarization and shooting techniques is the law. You will leave the class knowing when it is OK to intervene with your weapon and probably more importantly, when it is not OK to intervene.

Either you:
a) Never took a CCW class
b) Took a CCW class and didn't pay attention
c) Took a CCW class, paid attention and you just don't care about the law

Whether it is a), b) or c), I would rather take my chances with a BG in a dark alley than around someone like you. At least with the guy in the alley, I know what his intentions are and what I have to do. In your case, I am not really sure I can trust you to make the proper judgement call.

If you are so enthusiastic about taking care of BG's, why not just join your local law enforcement academy? Or better yet, go to your local armed forces recruiting center and tell them that you want to make the world safe from BG's and I am sure they will be very accommodating! You will get to shoot real weapons, not these wimpy semi-automatics us poor civilians are stuck with! And you won't have to worry about ammo shortages. No more disappointing trips to Wal-Mart!

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Old August 1, 2009, 07:28 AM   #6
Bismarck357
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Greetings Scott,

I respect your difference of opinion,but your assumptions about my training and background are a bit off the mark;lets see if I can clear things up for you.

1st: Not only do I possess a Oregon CCW,but also one for Washington and Florida. And this may come as a shock to you,but I am a certified range officer;and I teach "Tactical and defensive pistol combat" classes, that means if you live in my neck of the woods and want a CCW,you go through me.

2nd: I am former military,a wounded veteran to be exact. 75th Ranger Regiment, 1st Battalion Bravo company,I was a lance corporal;my unit's call sign was:"Chameleon-25".


3rd:You say you'd rather face the "badguy" then turn your back on me?
I must say,my feelings are hurt. Unless you are posein' a threat to me or any other honest citizen you'll have nothing to fear from me friend.

I am sorry if my post offended you,but I believe if someone needs help and I'm in the position to do so,its civic duty to help.
Are you saying you whould not help someone in need? Whats that say about you???
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Old August 1, 2009, 09:48 AM   #7
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Quote:
Not only do I possess a Oregon CCW,but also one for Washington and Florida. And this may come as a shock to you,but I am a certified range officer;and I teach "Tactical and defensive pistol combat" classes, that means if you live in my neck of the woods and want a CCW,you go through me.
Then you are undoubtedly aware of the extreme risks to which a citizen may be exposed in getting involved with other parties. The citizen is not only untrained, but is not indemnified against law suits.

To wit--suppose what appears to be a carjacking is not? Suppose no one is injured--you may still be subject to civil liability, and if you have displayed a deadly weapon, to criminal charges.

Regardless of what does happen to be "going down", to use the vernacular, suppose an innocent party is injured. The tab is on you, no questions asked. Could be a very big one.

Suppose the victim or apparent victim is injured, and with his or her attorney, claims that your actions caused or contributed to the injury. Then you will have some fun.

How would you feel if, after you had intervened, the testimony of the victim or apparent victim did not even begin to support your account of what happened? Friend, wife, "partner," cultural "kin" of the assailant...you name it. That is far from an uncommon happening. That won't help your affirmative defense, will it?

Yes, if you do use deadly force under any circumstance, you are going to have to have sufficient evidence to support a defense of justifiability.

And, of course, you may be killed or maimed.

Good idea not to try to be the hero, and to intervene only if you are certain that you know all of the facts, and best if the apparent victim is a close friend of yours. My advice? No, it is the advice of attorneys, most qualified CCW instructors, the better known trainers, and law enforcement officers. But I do follow it.

Quote:
I believe if someone needs help and I'm in the position to do so,its civic duty to help.
So do I. That does not mean that I would apply deadly force unless I knew all of the facts including the laws of the specific jurisdiction. You can call, you can make noise, you can use bear spray (creating some liability, of course), you can do a lot of things, but bring to bear a cane or a bat or a gun and you may find that you have caused more injury than you have prevented. And you'll pay for it.
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Old August 1, 2009, 09:57 AM   #8
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Bismarck357, if I hurt your feelings, I am sorry (even though I seriously doubt I hurt your feelings). As far as your military service, for that I do sincerely thank you.

And furthermore...

Just because you see Person A pointing a gun at Person B, you don't necessarily know who the BG is. Let's say a guy with a gun is some dirty looking ne'er-do-well looking type person pointing a gun at a man in an Armani suit. So now what happens if you chose to intervene with your gun to "rescue" they guy in the suit and it turns out the guy with the gun is actually an undercover cop busting the "gentleman" in the suit?

As OldMarksman said, this whole notion of being "tried by twelve" will have a whole new meaning for you!

Scott
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Old August 1, 2009, 10:48 AM   #9
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Some very interesting and good advice my friends,and I thank you for it. No doubt you've givin' me some food for thought. I must confess,my old army mentality quite often gets the better of me;we had orders...when in doubt,shoot. I'm very well versed in Oregon and Washington law concerning the use of deadly force,and I can promise you gentlemen,after what I had to do in the war I hope to god I never have to shed the blood of another again,scumbag or not. So before we start flingin' insults at each other can we agree to disagree on some points,and just shake hands here?


J.W. Bismarck
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Old August 1, 2009, 11:12 AM   #10
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Maybe we should go out and have a beer!! If it can work to solve misunderstandings in Washington, it should work here!

Since OldMarksman and I are in St. Louis, it will have to be an Anheuser Busch, excuse me, an INBEV product!

Scott
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Old August 1, 2009, 11:43 AM   #11
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Bismarck357 has it on a crucial debate in the concealed carry world and stated it well:

Quote:
Having a CCW and carryin' a gun is not just for self-defense alone,you have a duty as a citizen to safegaurd the lives of others who for whatever reason can't defend themselves.
BTW - as having lived in Oregon for 17 years - when you have a beer - OR is the place for micro brews. However, I've developed a taste for Shiner here in TX.

I shall opine:

1. The issue has a hidden agenda of what is your theory of altruism.

2. The causes of altruistic behavior are many. Moral responsibilty to help is one of them.

3. The legalistic gun world clearly teaches that you should not get involved and by a good witness. This teaching absolves them of liability if you get hurt and say - well, instructor told me to get in the fight. It also may get those without ability from screwing up things. We do now have cluster matings of a small number of CCW types messing up from bad interventions.

4. One theoretic point is whether the altruistic person does it to help or be a hero, wanting to punish the bad guy?

5. Whom do you help? We know that we help those we think are deserving.

6. Are you willing to assume the sacrifice to your family if you come to a bad end? Is it moral to risk their future for a stranger? The military does as part of their job as to fire, police, etc. However, the latter had a big debate about going home safe vs. single responder in a rampage situation.

Not to many folks here would support your family for life if you die or send your kid to college. The best we got once is someone who would let you sleep on their couch.

The impulse to help the deserving in my opinion is not stupid or not sensible. It is a reasonable moral position if not done by bravado.

However, the view that someone doesn't intervention (when they don't have an official position which mandates some) because of fear to themselves or results to their family is equally acceptable.

Folks jump in to save people quite a bit. We've done this before. Diving into a shoplifting is quite different from saving a child from a pervert kidnapping.
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Old August 1, 2009, 02:25 PM   #12
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Quote:
2nd: I am former military,a wounded veteran to be exact. 75th Ranger Regiment, 1st Battalion Bravo company,I was a lance corporal;my unit's call sign was:"Chameleon-25".
Lance corporal is a Marine term, the Army equivalent would be PFC (private first class). I hate to call BS on your background but that is such a glaring mistake its impossible to overlook.

Please explain this mistake so that we can have some faith in one of our fellow forum members.

p.s. my brother in law is in the 75th Rangers and might be of some use in validating your position. Let me know and I will ask him.

p.p.s you signature quote comes into play here
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Old August 10, 2009, 05:10 PM   #13
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Most, if not all states teach that the right to bear arms does not give one the right to be a law enforcement officer. Your right to carry a firearm gives you the right to protect your life and the lives of your family. You can use your weapon to save another persons life if their life is in danger or to stop a rape.

A car jacking does not constitute the right to draw a weapon. That is better left to the police. As someone mentioned, be observant, take notes, be of use to the police but don't become a citizen cop as you will end up with more trouble than you ever bargained for.
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Old August 10, 2009, 08:28 PM   #14
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You may call me a wimp...but I would have chosen not to intervene and simply dial 911 if the security guards didnt have it under control.

Also though I have never served in the military due to my pacemaker(had one since I was 7 weeks old), I too was under the impression that only the Marine Corps had Lance Corporals? Correct me if I am wrong, and I'm not trying to pick a fight.
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Old August 10, 2009, 08:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
To wit--suppose what appears to be a carjacking is not?
A few years ago, I was at a suburban convenience store. My car was parked at a pump. Three pumps over, a young man ran up on a car in which a young lady was sitting.

He started screaming, "give me the car" repeatedly. He was waving his arms and his demeanor was obviously threatening.

I stepped behind my car for cover and put my hand on the butt.

Then the lady in the car said, "shut up, Maurice." They began to laugh.

What would have happened if I'd intervened with violence, or the threat of violence?
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Old August 10, 2009, 10:50 PM   #16
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Some years back, a car came screeching up my driveway & skidded to a halt. Doors banged & a blood curdling woman's voice yells "Call the POLICE! He's gonna KILLLLL me!". By the time I extricated myself from the EZ Boy (& retrieved the .357 from the top drawer next to it), she was already through the gate & 1/2 way to the porch. I stepped out onto the porch (leaving the door open & stepping aside, I wasn't going to get in her way if she had a mind to duck inside- if she had I would have followed her in, locked the door & defended my "castle"). She got to the first porch step, looked up & saw me standing out of the way, with revolver in hand (pointed down, next to my hip). She spun on her heel & headed straight back to the "threat" that she was running from (her husband). They both got back in their separate cars and headed down the road, screeching and trying to run each other off of the road.

Lessons learned: Not everyone who appears or even claims to be under lethal assault actually ARE. Not everyone desperately asking for protection actually WANT it. And... (one I already knew).... you do NOT want to get in the middle of a domestic disturbance. Even if he WAS going to kill her, she'd sue your butt for defending her.
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Old August 10, 2009, 11:38 PM   #17
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MauiDoc
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Join Date: 2007-06-28
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Posts: 74 First rule....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

....keep yourself safe.

I put the question to my brother the cop, "What do you do if you're off-duty and see 'X' happening.' He says standard procedure is keep yourself safe and be a good witness. My hit would be to get on the phone to 911 and/or take notes for later. The question of whether to react to keep others safe boils down (as always) to your personal moral imperative.
Spot on mate.

It appears to me that those that would intervene to "save the day", and be a hero, have never been Mirandized or investigated.

No thank you. I will be a good witness, but unless I am sure of what is going on, the most you will get from me when I am not working is to summon the on-duty constabulary and be a good witness.

It's really no fun answering whey you did what you did and be left twisting in the wind alone. It's times like that when you find out who your true friends are.

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Old August 11, 2009, 12:04 AM   #18
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I am sorry, but I disagree on having a responsibility to others to protect them. I don't carry to protect random strangers. I carry to protect myself and the people I care about. Not to say I don't have morals, but I would not try to stop a car-jacking.
3 guys beating someone to the ground? Ok, I will call the cops and interfere. Girl getting raped? Cops, interfere. Anything really out there where I wish I was getting help if my shoes were switched, then yes. I don't have a problem with that.
Cars can be replaced. If you aren't put in danger, then whats the point of drawing a weapon? I mean, I can pull out the 45 and shoot someone for stealing my car in GA. Do I really want to? Probably not since I am putting holes in my own car, and would make them bleed all in my car. No good.

In short, I might help someone out in need. It depends. I can't give definite answers because I haven't been in the situation to make a decision. Does that mean I am selfish? Maybe.
Whoever says that you are no better than the bad guy if you don't help is judgmental and undeserving of any respect. It isn't your place to tell me what I should and shouldn't do with my gun in any situation. If I run away I run away. My choice, not yours, my life not yours. Judge all you want, you can say you will do this and that but you never know until you are there. I have my priorities. Myself, my friends+family, everyone else.
Although I respect the ideology, the reality needs to catch up
Oh and Bismark your sig is ironic to your ideology
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Old August 11, 2009, 10:37 AM   #19
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Gotta be real careful when it comes to involving a CCW weapon in a situation you don't fully know about. Laws are different from state to state, and some permit you to "stand in the other person's shoes" and use force as if justified.

Far better off in the situation the OP posted to be a good witness. A trip to the store could land you with thousands of dollars in legal bills and jail time if you mis-interpreted the situation and acted.
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Old August 11, 2009, 11:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
It also made me think about what I would do, if I did actually see a carjacking taking place. Say I'm stopped behind a car and someone goes to the car in front of me and tries to carjack them. What would your response be if you were carrying? What would your response be if you weren't carrying?
Better make sure your "response" doesn't result in:
1. Car owner getting shot
2. You getting shot
3. Someone else getting shot downrange
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Old August 15, 2009, 09:35 AM   #21
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Bismarck357 wrote:

Quote:
Everyone who has posted on this thread has put forth good and valid points. No two situations are the same,neither are the proper responses the same. Vigilent situational awareness at all times is an absolute. When you see what may be a crime taking place you are aware of only so much information,in a matter of seconds you must size up the situation and plan your reaction.
Now heres where alot of people will disagree with me...
Having a CCW and carryin' a gun is not just for self-defense alone,you have a duty as a citizen to safegaurd the lives of others who for whatever reason can't defend themselves. That means at times putting yourself in harms way,but that is something you must accept. The police are not our personal bodygaurds,and they can't be everywhere at once to assist everyone(no disrespect to the police mind you). If your additude is "Its not my problem" or merely sit back,watch the crime happen and report the details later,you are showing "indifference" to those in need;and that in my opinion makes you little better then the scumbag who comited the crime.

Those who have the ability to take action have the responsability to do so.
Quote:
1st: Not only do I possess a Oregon CCW,but also one for Washington and Florida. And this may come as a shock to you,but I am a certified range officer;and I teach "Tactical and defensive pistol combat" classes, that means if you live in my neck of the woods and want a CCW,you go through me.

2nd: I am former military,a wounded veteran to be exact. 75th Ranger Regiment, 1st Battalion Bravo company,I was a lance corporal;my unit's call sign was:"Chameleon-25".
I have so many problems with what this guy has to say it's frightening. My biggest problem is that someone will cruise in here as a "guest" and think that "Bismarck357" is representative of us as a whole.:barf::barf:

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Old August 15, 2009, 09:42 AM   #22
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bismarck357
Having a CCW and carryin' a gun is not just for self-defense alone,you have a duty as a citizen to safegaurd the lives of others who for whatever reason can't defend themselves. That means at times putting yourself in harms way,but that is something you must accept. The police are not our personal bodygaurds,
Wait.... the police are not your personal body guards but I am? Uh, no... and HELL NO, thank you very much.

I am the body guard for me and mine, NOBODY else.
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