The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old July 26, 2009, 03:53 PM   #76
Manning Munitions
Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2009
Posts: 20
What the??

I personally think this post has gotten way off base. As a fellow CCW holder/gun rights proponent, I think what we should be focusing on is the fact that a gun was used in a responsible manner to ward off bodily harm, or threat to life (you have no idea how far this "thug" would have gone). Should you have handled the situation differently?? ABSOLUTELY!! I truly believe that in retrospect you realize this. Kudos to you sir, for being able to admit your mistakes and reflecting on the circumstances to handle the next situation (GOD forbid) better.
Manning Munitions is offline  
Old July 26, 2009, 04:21 PM   #77
Jofaba
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2009
Posts: 322
I didn't read the whole thread, just the senario. You asked for it, so here's my thoughts:

1. Don't ask for trouble. People like that want two things: to make fun of you for not standing up for yourself, or to get you to confront them in anger. It may just be one person mouthing off, but don't be fooled that it'd be a fight between just you and him.

Even if you got into a fight and won, it won't end there. Next time they'll have ten people with them and unless you're Jackie Chan you're not going to win that one.

2. You're greatest responsibility in carrying a gun is to keep it holstered as much as possible. You don't present your gun to prevent a black eye or let a punk know that they're picking on the wrong person.

3. You're permitted to carry a gun, not to use it. The judicial system is what decides whether you were right to use it. I've read a lot of threads where guns were used to positive outcomes without being fired, but I wonder how many of those were technically legal. If a policeman had witnessed the senarios, how many of those stories would have ended in jail time?

If you're in a convenience store and it gets held up, it's not your job or your right, (in my opinion), to do anything. You're not invested in the business, the money is not yours, and you don't know the perps intentions.

Everytime you take your gun out of it's holder in a self defense situation, you have to be say to yourself "I am willing to go to prison for this".

Justified shooters still end up (wrongly) incarcerated.

Say, if things had escilated, and you got knocked down and the guy smacked your sister hard and told her what he was going to do and you believed him, and you felt that if you didnt do something she would be gravely harmed, and whether you pull the trigger or not you take your gun out just as the cops are showing up (but you didn't see them) you have to be willing to get arrested and possibly go to prison. You'll know that you saved your sister from great pain or death and so you don't regret it.
Jofaba is offline  
Old July 26, 2009, 04:56 PM   #78
Hellbilly5000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 24, 2009
Location: RGV, Tx
Posts: 787
There is no such thing as retreating its called advancing in the other direction
__________________
And death climbs the steps one by one, To give you the rose that's been burnt by her son, Point me to the sky above I can't get there on my own, Walk me through the graveyard Dig up her bones
Hellbilly5000 is offline  
Old July 26, 2009, 04:57 PM   #79
Kyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Posts: 897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manning Munitions
I personally think this post has gotten way off base. As a fellow CCW holder/gun rights proponent, I think what we should be focusing on is the fact that a gun was used in a responsible manner to ward off bodily harm, or threat to life (you have no idea how far this "thug" would have gone). Should you have handled the situation differently?? ABSOLUTELY!! I truly believe that in retrospect you realize this. Kudos to you sir, for being able to admit your mistakes and reflecting on the circumstances to handle the next situation (GOD forbid) better.
Actually the gun was not used in the appropriate manner. The gun did not have to be used at all. The fact that contributed in the worsening of the situation is the reason.
Ill make it real easy.
Something bad about my sister>F U> middle finger> guy has to save face in front of friends> follows him to the car> OP pulls gun>guy leaves.

What really could have happened was
Something bad about my sister> ok whatever, lets go> get in car and go home.
Which situation has no gun in it? So why would you feel the gun was used correctly? What if he didn't have one? Whats he gonna do when a guy bigger is coming that close? He would have gotten in the car and left
Kyo is offline  
Old July 26, 2009, 06:37 PM   #80
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
I dont have a sister myself... but I do have a couple of friends that have had boys calling to them... I usually laugh and reveal my finger while walking away... but then again I am 5'10" 160lbs. and have been doing martial arts for... 9 years... p.s.: I dont carry a firearm... I carry a knife...
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old July 26, 2009, 08:48 PM   #81
Jofaba
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2009
Posts: 322
Just came across an old pocket version of the Tao Te Ching. I like the philosophies, though it's been years since any of it's entered my mind.

Randomly flipped to a page to see what kind of randomn wisdom might smack me in the forehead, and I kid you not, this is what I read:

Quote:
Weapons are the tools of violence;
all decent men detest them.

Weapons are the tools of fear;
a descent man will avoid them
except in the direst necessity
and, if compelled, will use them
only with the utmost restraint.

Peace is his highest value.
If the peace has been shattered,
how can he be content?

His enemies are not demons,
but human beings like himself.

He doesn't wish them personal harm.
Nor does he rejoice in victory.
How could he rejoice in victory
and delight in the slaughter of men?

He enters a battle gravely,
with sorrow and with great compassion,
as if he were attending a funeral.
Jofaba is offline  
Old July 26, 2009, 09:27 PM   #82
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
onthejon55...

... I know you're young. You're initial post said you were going back to college after visiting home. But even if you hadn't said that, I could have predicted you'd be young.

Same goes for Rampage. If he isn't young, then I can't explain how he still has such a naive concept of what will get you into serious legal trouble, and possibly fatal trouble too.

If you want to question my testosterone levels, that's fine, it goes with your age I suppose. However, there are a few things that shape my perspective, so let me share them with you.

1) I've been responsible for training and leading fairly large numbers of young guys like you. At one point, was in charge of approximately 90 guys, most of whom were around your age. The majority of problems encountered that involved ego overwhelming good sense occurred with the younger age bracket of my guys.

2) In the past, the government has trusted me with command of $44M warplanes, complete with missiles and other munitions.

3) In the past, the government has trusted me with command of Sea Sparrow and CIWS weapon systems, plus control of interceptors, in defense of a nuclear aircraft carrier.

4) I've lived and worked alongside SEALs and Army SF as an air reconnaissance liaison.

5) I'll be heading over to Afghanistan in the fall, with my next job, so I'm not going to get overly perturbed about whether my testosterone levels meet your approval.

6) Just got back from an evening out with friends I work out with, cops and martial arts instructors. Want to guess how many of us have challenged random idiots in the past five or ten years? If you guessed anything other than zero, please recalibrate.

Now, from somebody who's older than you, and has seen a reasonable amount of stupid actions taken over the years.... but also from somebody who's still young enough to occasionally get in the middle of things... grow up.

Somebody said words you didn't like, so you chose to respond to guys when you had to know that aside from your Walther, you had absolutely no way to control what would happen next. You put your sister at risk; if the place was as deserted as you describe, and those guys were leching after her to begin with, what might they have done to her after they got done stomping you?

How would your pride and ego have dealt with that?

For Rampage, you need to brush up on the law as it relates to self-defense, and as it relates to actions that you might take that would deny you of a legal claim of self-defense. If you walk your own talk, you're an aggravated assault or worse conviction waiting to happen.

Last edited by MLeake; July 26, 2009 at 09:40 PM.
MLeake is offline  
Old July 26, 2009, 11:14 PM   #83
Composer_1777
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 30, 2009
Location: New Orleans, La
Posts: 242
Acting aggressively to aggression is insecurity.

The OP was not being dominated until he chose aggression then retreated. When they called out to his sister, it wasn't a confrontation, it was just an insecure male trying to prove himself.

To be dominant you have to figure out how to be Assertive and not fall prey to intimidation. Intimidation is useless against a truly dominant assertive male.

It is hard to be assertive and i don't always accomplish that goal, myself. I probably would have said "thats my sister dumb F**K because the guy was no threat. He was no threat, he's insecure he wouldn't do anything. He only became aggressive after the OP showed weakness.

He thought she was your girlfriend. Lets just get that out there now.

Next time just say that's my sister "Insult". Then, if the person responds more aggressively u can ignore it or just go up to the person face to face and ask him ***.
Composer_1777 is offline  
Old July 27, 2009, 06:57 AM   #84
scottaschultz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 392
Quote:
As a fellow CCW holder/gun rights proponent, I think what we should be focusing on is the fact that a gun was used in a responsible manner to ward off bodily harm...
Responsible? In what universe? This boy wrote a check with his mouth (and used testosterone for ink!) and then relied on his gun to cash that check!

It just smells like a hypothetical scenario that never really happened by someone who has never taken a CCW class.

Scott
__________________
"I don't like repeat offenders, I like dead offenders!" Ted Nugent
scottaschultz is offline  
Old July 27, 2009, 07:28 AM   #85
danbrew
Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 1998
Location: Chicago
Posts: 72
Quote:
I know I shouldnt have said anything but sometimes you cant help it. If there is nothing anyone can say to you to make you mad then you may want to get your testosterone levels checked. Every man has his breaking point and my breaking point comes when my sister is insulted in public.
If that's your breaking point, you're going to have a hard life.
danbrew is offline  
Old July 27, 2009, 09:04 AM   #86
skydiver3346
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,222
Deeply offended:

I agree with Archie on this one. This type of situation really ticks me off. Yes, the best thing (especially with your little sister involved) would to be have got in the car and drove away (plus you were armed to boot).

That does not mean you were not to be offended and ****** off. Nowadays, we unfortunately must not respond to insults, aggression, etc. We are just supposed to walk away with our tails tucked between our legs and slither off..

That was not the case many years ago. These guys would have got their butts kicked for doing this. Of course you being armed, means you have to leave and retreat. That is the law and protects you from possible inncarceration later on, (if you shoot one of them). Anyway, being armed always makes a big difference on your decisions in matters like that.

If I wasn't armed, I promise you I would have immediately jumped on the biggest guy and broke his nose straight away without saying a word. Immediate response takes these dirt bags by surprise (as it does most anyone). Sort of Shock n' Awe! No threats, no small talk, no anything, just immediate action. I promise you that they would not have expected that, but rather the normal BS and postering that ususally occurs when these things happen.

Yes, your little sister deserves to be treated with respect (as you do). As her big brother, you have a responsibility to protect her. No reason to take this kind of crap from anybody. But that is the way we are supposed to handle things nowadays.

However, being that you were armed, changes everything and you must walk away.
skydiver3346 is offline  
Old July 27, 2009, 09:27 AM   #87
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,902
Post #82 is excellent.

Going to go ahead and close this one, as the discussion is just going in circles at this point.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10456 seconds with 9 queries