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Old July 23, 2009, 05:42 PM   #26
mskdgunman
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This bugs me everytime I hear it and I can see both sides. As a detectives, I've written and executed close to 150 search warrants, mostly for drugs, in my time in the narc unit. I know the precautions I take and how I document the location where I'm going and the work I put into the investigations so I would truely like to know how these mistakes happen. I take great pains to positively identify my target. Still photos, property appraiser information, video, the whole 9 yards. Even if I'm not on the actual entry, I lead the entry team to the location as I know exactly where I'm going. Single family residences are one thing but apartments and rooming houses make me nervous so I take extra steps with these. After all, all apartments in a given complex look pretty much the same with the execption of the numbers on the door/mailbox and sometimes those numbers are non existant. I could envision hitting a wrong apartment. That is still no excuse, but I can see it happening.

As for what to do and how to tell it's really the cops coming in the door there is no easy answer. We generally deploy distraction devices (flash bangs) unless the situation dictates otherwise and since not many bad guys go to that length that could be a clue but short of that...what more can you do? You're suited up, marked with POLICE all over you and screaming that you're the cops and you have a warrant. I'm not sure what else can be done on our part as far as this goes. We usually do have a marked unit accompany us on warrants but you probably won't see it unless you happen to be up and look out the window.

I have to say that in the event a SWAT team hits your house, you comply and let it work itself out. Believe me, during the actual entry, no one is listening to protestations of innocence or that we have the wrong house. In our minds at that time, we're in the right place. Let the team get everything secured and things to calm down a notch. Rest assurred that any mistake will make itself apparent before long. Being right doesn't help if you're dead or injured so be smart and be cooperative. Once the mistake is realized, the PD will bend over backwards to make it right (as they should). Any way you cut it, a situation like this is just bad all the way around. It's up to everybody involved to minimize the damage in any way they can.

I've commented on the whole "no knock" thing before and as I've said, in FL, there is not such thing. NO judge I've ever met (State of Federal) will sign a warrant if you state that you want to enter without knocking/announcing. How long do you wait for an answer on a K&A? Depends on a ton of things and there is no set standard as each situation is different. You just have to justify your decision.

Hitting an indoor marijuana grow at 3:00 AM where none of the suspects have any history of violence will probably require a much longer K&A then if you were hitting a meth lab occuppied by known armed gang bangers at 4:00 PM. After all, people are probably sleeping at 0300 and it's pretty hard to destory a bunch of marijuana plants, grow lights and ballasts. It all comes down to safety and the percieved level of danger at the time based on the available information. That and common sense.

On a side note, I've always thought that it should be a crime for non LEO's to possess anything with POLICE/AGENT/SHERIFF on it but not all law makers seem to agree (at least in our area). Some stores sell POLICE shirts to whoever walks in so that complicates matters for everybody (us included). Unless the guy with the item actually portrays him/herself as a cop while wearing the item, there is generally nothing we can do. Of course, the situation at the time will dictate our response. I've just never seen any need for a non LEO to have something which may lead someone to believe that they are one. Such a person is either a wannabe, looking to cause trouble or just stupid. I for one wish Florida would change the law on this one
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Old July 23, 2009, 05:50 PM   #27
Dragon55
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Poor poor planning........

I've thought about this scenario also.

It is a mistake that is absolutely avoidable. Here's how.

The person in charge of the raid should do his/her own personal surveillance of the address before they are in command of a bunch of folks with guns.

Anytime this is not done it is a failure on the part of law enforcement.

I strongly disagree with the act of breaking down someone's door based on some quasi criminal's say so.

Anytime you hear about the cops doing this someone high up has FAILED miserably.
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Old July 23, 2009, 05:52 PM   #28
Doc Intrepid
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Tell it to the Billings...

"Byrd and Melanie Billings, known for adopting 13 special needs children, were killed during a robbery of their home last week. ...The suspects ...executed a well-trained and rehearsed commando-type raid of the Billing's home"...

As far as I know, video surveillance tapes showed multiple attackers entering the house in two teams, one from the front and one from the rear, simultaneously.



From inside the house I doubt you could have instantly identified whether the attackers were LEO or not.

FWIW.

Rare...but it happens.
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Old July 23, 2009, 06:06 PM   #29
Terry A
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Bravado and braggadocio? Really??

Quote:
This is pretty comical, actually. SWAT teams are not supermen, and they are not able to miracle their way into a dwelling instantaneously, despite all of your bravado and braggadocio.
I knew that no matter how it was worded, it would be picked apart like a chicken bone.

The post was not bragging about "me" or "I" ANYWHERE, the post was from my experience, observation and knowledge of what I knew had happened in the 10 years I was part of that. I was asserting that the police DO have the upper hand by speed and surprise. You really doubt they don't? Then why do they do it the way they do and not some other way that YOU know about? You sound jealous, mad or something. Why?

That being said, sorry the CERT and SWAT boys don't wimper and pout about how can they possibly get into a house where they're not wanted. Can you give me one instance where they just gave up and left, totally clueless and unable to gain an entry or resolve the situation. What can you share from all your experinces in this matter? And I'm not talking about what you read in a magazine either or saw on your favorite TV show. How many entries have YOU done? Please edify us.

Why do a very few % here always think the police are so inept, incapable or stupid?

And Hogdogs (Brent), my post does say that although mistakes are rare, they do happen, that's why you do hear about them. Or didn't you read that far?
The police ain't perfect, but there is a stiff penalty when they're not.
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Old July 23, 2009, 06:17 PM   #30
csmsss
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Quote:
I knew that no matter how it was worded, it would be picked apart like a chicken bone.
Then perhaps you should have kept it to yourself.

Quote:
The post was not bragging about "me" or "I" ANYWHERE, the post was from my experience, observation and knowledge of what I knew had happened in the 10 years I was part of that. I was asserting that the police DO have the upper hand by speed and surprise. You really doubt they don't? Then why do they do it the way they do and not some other way that YOU know about? You sound jealous, mad or something. Why?
Your assertion is that ALL of these SWAT and similar rapid-response teams are so capable, when the fact is the level of training and capability varies wildly from team to team. Some are full-time, and do nothing but train for their SWAT duties, whereas others are only part-time or, worse, overtime SWAT teams that can't even assemble in less than 30 minutes (I happen to know this is the case with the Beaumont PD team). They are as competent as their training and equipment allow them to be, but not all police departments are funded sufficiently to develop this capability.

Quote:
That being said, sorry the CERT and SWAT boys don't wimper and pout about how can they possibly get into a house where they're not wanted.
I never said they do this behavior. You're raising a strawman here, to what end I cannot discern.

Quote:
Can you give me one instance where they just gave up and left, totally clueless and unable to gain an entry or resolve the situation. What can you share from all your experinces in this matter? And I'm not talking about what you read in a magazine either or saw on your favorite TV show. How many entries have YOU done? Please edify us.
Again, another strawman. I never suggested they ever do this. My point is that they are not each and every one the crack team of operators you suggest they are. If anyone is speaking as though his sole exposure to SWAT teams is through magazines and TV shows, it's you, sir (or madam, as the case may be).

Quote:
Why do a very few % here always think the police are so inept, incapable or stupid?
Why do a very few % here (like you, perhaps?) think that citizens are so inept, incapable or stupid?

Quote:
The police ain't perfect, but there is a stiff penalty when they're not.
Sometimes. Other times, not so much.
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Old July 23, 2009, 06:35 PM   #31
p99guy
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One tecnique is wait and see if they kill your dog....if they do they are legitamate, but wait home invaders dressed like ersatz Task force guys do the same thing... Ok, so the dog thing isnt a good way to judge.

ok, ok I got it...meet them at the front door and point a gun..if they are legit, they will shoot you full of holes. Well, wait...the ersatz task force guys will do the same thing. hmmmmmm.

Ok, i'm at a loss here....if you resist, both will hurt you...If you don't resist, you and your dog can still be killed.


You are simply not going to get the upper hand with a bedside pistol....it would take a ultra violent military grade response (tossing fragmentation grenades, spraying massive amounts of high penetration beltfed gunfire through walls to the point that the invaders are pretty sure they arent going to live over this)
None of which is neibor friendly, and your property insurance is going to go though the roof ( did i mention the foogas?)
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Old July 23, 2009, 06:37 PM   #32
Terry A
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Quote:
My point is that they are not each and every one the crack team of operators you suggest they are. If anyone is speaking as though his sole exposure to SWAT teams is through magazines and TV shows, it's you, sir (or madam, as the case may be).
csmsss,
I gotta give you credit where credit is due my friend, THAT was a good one. All the fire just went out of me and you got me smiling.

For the record, I am a dude, not a "madam".

This is a public forum. None of us can really expect that everybody will always agree with us 100% of the time. Sometimes, it does get frustrating though, but at the end of the day, we're all about the same. We all love our guns and enjoy the banter that goes with being gun owners. Frustrating as it can sometimes be.....

Have a good evening csmsss!
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Old July 23, 2009, 06:44 PM   #33
pax
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And on that note, I do believe this one has run its course.

The purpose of the Tactics & Training forum on TFL is to discuss the tactics and the training people need in order to survive criminal encounters. That's it. It's not to tear each other down, to speculate about politics, to gripe about police activity, or anything else of that nature. It's to discuss tactics and training for criminal encounters.

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