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Old July 18, 2009, 06:56 PM   #1
Brit
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Bullet hits count!

TALKING OF 9MM DUTY/SELF DEFENSE SHOOTINGS.

Quite a few years ago (Orlando City Police) OPD went to the 127g+P+ in a 9mm Winchester round, now called the Ranger T. They have had good results in their confrontations with criminals. Not a magic bullet, there ain't one.

The interpretations of the results of shootings, is mind boggling. All most information covers is the bullet, it's penetration in inches, and its dimension at the end of that travel.

First take the duty pistol, a SIG 226 double action first shot, feels like 20lbs! after triggering this shot, and missing, the finger flies forward to fire the second shot, to where the trigger was b/4, but it is not there now, it is further back, moved to single action, now that same finger puts more power, more erratically to duplicate the feel of the first shot, and again not such a good hit.

The trigger pressure is half the weight, and pressure, half the travel distance to discharge. For shot #2 and not found in the same place, so snatched hard one more time. well let us blame the cartridge for the poor hits/results. NOT!

First best proposition, hit vital areas a lot, quickly. The 9mm allows quicker more accurate hits. Pick a bullet with spikes sticking out at the sides, more quicker bleeding, not so bad, we can even add extra rounds too, there is more room don't you know, fatter magazine. Lots of variables here Sir.

But don't forget, there is no magic bullet, but the 127g +P+ WW RangerT is better than most.

No I do not work for Winchester, never did.
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Old July 18, 2009, 07:07 PM   #2
Jim March
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I don't have a lot of goodwill towards DA/SA autos. Stick with one or the other.
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Old July 18, 2009, 08:06 PM   #3
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Difficulty in transitioning from DA first shot to SA second shot...

... while real, is overrated.

The Sig P-series DA pulls are typically not that heavy, and are pretty smooth. It's not hard to keep doubletaps near COM at reasonable ranges. That said, it is slightly easier to do that with a consistent trigger.

Argument could be made that the DA/SA just requires more training wrt trigger control, as opposed to overall manual of arms.
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Old July 18, 2009, 08:11 PM   #4
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Quote:
I don't have a lot of goodwill towards DA/SA autos. Stick with one or the other.
I have several DA/SA pistols made by SIG. All have 8 to 9 lb. triggers. None feel like twenty. The system can be learned so that transitioning from DA to SA can be done without missing a beat. Or with the the first shot, for that matter.

While I now prefer the DAK, the DA/SA system works fine for me.

Brit's "articulation" of the subject matter was difficult to follow, but blaming the DA/SA system isn't anymore credible than blaming the bullet.
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Old July 18, 2009, 08:33 PM   #5
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My 1st auto was an S&W Model 59 and I had no trouble at all adjusting to it. IF you are having that much trouble, thumb the hammer the 1st shot and shoot them ALL with the short throw. Problem solved!
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Old July 18, 2009, 08:41 PM   #6
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Knobby45,

Typical Scouse exaggeration on the 20lbs! Just did not want to mention the Glock trigger of consistent 5 lbs, and tiny reset!

Glock is a bad word in OPD.

You say you have more than one DA/SA Pistol, the rounds a Police Officer typically fires is not the amount gun guys and gals fire. OPD not to bad.

So why complicate an action requiring life and death decisions, with a system of double/single, decocking lever/hammer? It can not help.
I have read so much of knock down power, energy transfer, temporary cavity, on these forums, to last me a lifetime, my take?

Bullet makes hole, you bleed and die, or not... One minute....One hour. Or bullet hits brain, top couple of inches of spine, done.

Anything that complicates the ability to put accurate, especially the first one!
rounds out against an assailant is not good, Police or not.

Sorry about my English, you should hear my accent!
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Old July 20, 2009, 03:43 AM   #7
prdator
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Brit,

So do you have the data you spoke of on the bullet performance??
If so can you post that I'd like more info on that and number of rounds fired number of bad guys per encounter ect.

Thanks
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Old July 20, 2009, 11:07 AM   #8
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Brit, I'm not exactly understanding the point of your post. Are you saying shot placement is everything? If you are, you're absolutely correct. Are you saying inaccuracy may be inherent in the DA/SA mode switch? Possible, but with practice, that can be eliminated. I've never fired the SIG, but I have two Bersa Thunder .380s (first shot DA, the remainder SA) that I can place all rounds in the 10 ring from 15 feet in rapid fire.

What some people do in DA is to pull the trigger back too slowly. You end up with a LONG wait for the BANG, and you anticipate it, which WILL cause inaccuracy. Simply pull the trigger straight through, not jerking it, but fairly rapidly.
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Old July 20, 2009, 12:35 PM   #9
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I have a Sig P226... for the most part, unless you are pulling it from a holster chambered & decocked -- other than that -- every shot is SA. Load a magazine, rack the slide... SA from shot 1 to the bottom of the mag. I understand the complaint may be from a DA start in a holster, but otherwise, it is moot.
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Old July 20, 2009, 12:36 PM   #10
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I like the 147g. HST myself.
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Old July 20, 2009, 01:10 PM   #11
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Not putting anyone else's views down, but...in my opinion John Browning devised the perfect trigger/safety system with his design of the 1911 Government model, and though many firearms manufacturers and designers have attempted to build better fire control systems, none have succeeded.
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Old July 20, 2009, 01:52 PM   #12
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practice, practice, practice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit
TALKING OF 9MM DUTY/SELF DEFENSE SHOOTINGS.

Quite a few years ago (Orlando City Police) OPD went to the 127g+P+ in a 9mm Winchester round, now called the Ranger T. They have had good results in their confrontations with criminals. Not a magic bullet, there ain't one.

The interpretations of the results of shootings, is mind boggling. All most information covers is the bullet, its penetration in inches, and its dimension at the end of that travel.


First best proposition, hit vital areas a lot, quickly. The 9mm allows quicker more accurate hits. Pick a bullet with spikes sticking out at the sides, quicker bleeding

But don't forget, there is no magic bullet, but the 127g +P+ WW RangerT is better than most.
I concur. Here's why:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm#Black-Talon

Quote:
The resilient, elastic-like tissues of blood vessels, bowel, heart, lung, muscle and nerve can easily absorb the stretching and transient displacement of temporary cavitation without sustaining very much damage.

Some handgun bullets fragment as they penetrate. The detached fragments produce their own wound tracks, usually straying no farther than half an inch from the main path of the bullet. Fragmentation of hollowpoint bullets does not contribute to any substantial increase in wounding effectiveness

However, as velocity begins to slow, soft tissue is then able to stretch around the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder to move out of the way. As the bullet slows further it plows more and more tissue aside instead of crushing it.

Near the end of the wound track, the diameter of the permanent cavity might be less than 60 percent of the expanded diameter of the bullet. The last few inches of the wound track are the most important because this is where the vital cardiovascular structures are located that you’re trying to damage.

This is where the police only Winchester Ranger Talon (formerly Black Talon and Ranger SXT) bullet departs from conventional expanding hollowpoint bullets. Ranger Talon adds an additional wounding mechanism: cutting.

When Ranger Talon expands, its copper jacket peels back to form six sharp claws. These claws protrude outward just slightly beyond the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder.

Upon impact with flesh Ranger Talon performs identical to conventional hollowpoint bullets. However, as it penetrates and slows it does not suffer a decrease in effective bullet diameter. This is because tissue that stretches and flows around the smooth shoulder of the mushroom-shaped lead core comes into contact with the sharp copper jacket claws and is lacerated.

These lacerations contribute little to overall wound severity.

However, if Ranger Talon happens to pass very close to a major cardiovascular structure, instead of merely shoving it aside as it passes by, one of the six claws might be in position to cut the wall of this structure to cause profuse bleeding.

This additional cutting mechanism gives Ranger Talon the potential to be approximately 3% to 5% more effective than other expanding bullets of the same caliber. In one out of every 20-30 shootings, Ranger Talon might make a difference.
I keep my handguns stoked with R-P Golden Sabers and W-W Ranger T for the reasons mentioned above, and for a variety of other reasons.

As far as the heavy trigger pull on the duty handgun is concerned, the only way to avoid a flinch or rotating the gun in yer hand as you're squeezing the heavy trigger back is to practice at the range and to dry-fire at home.. The trigger mechanism will eventually smooth-out after time.
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Old July 20, 2009, 03:07 PM   #13
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i was going to say that now most hollow points will do the cutting as well anyway such is the shape of them.
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Old July 21, 2009, 06:56 PM   #14
Brit
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stopping power= "Where you hit the person and how many times you can hit them."

I met that Dr. He was a very straight shooter.

My main point, if I had one! With Police Officers, guns are just a pain, need to look after them, qualify, the range days are normally not enjoyed. THEN! add a first a Double Action-Next a single action, big bang, no ear muffs. etc. etc.

IMHO you need hi Cap magazines, good Ammo; a consistent trigger release, and good training, fun training, use actual shootings to build the training. Thats all.
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Old July 21, 2009, 07:04 PM   #15
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Two to the chest, one to the head. Regardless of caliber or grain, that should do the trick.
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Old July 21, 2009, 07:07 PM   #16
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As unpopular as condition 3 (Israeli) carry seems to be here, one upside is that after charging the chamber the weapon is ready for a nice, clean single action first shot, as are all follow-up shots. That's how I always carried my M9 in the Corps, and how I carry my Taurus .40 now. I understand that police officers may tend to carry more for quick draw and fire type scenarios... but I'm not a police officer and if the chips are down I'm going to take a second to compose myself and ready my pistol before 'charging into the fray'.

Regardless, I agree with Jim March in that I always fire my autos single action and my revolvers double action (unless there's a gentleman's bet on the line or we're talking 50+ yds).
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Old July 21, 2009, 09:50 PM   #17
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"Israeli" carry is falling out of favor in Israel...can you guess why? ( esp. in the "second intifada")

DA/SA is a straw man for those who don't train...even at a wimpy range.
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Old July 22, 2009, 03:08 AM   #18
Brit
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Jeff Cooper

Izzy,

You said (wrote)

DA/SA is a straw man for those who don't train...even at a wimpy range.

Jeff Cooper stated... "Double action Automatic Pistols are a perfect solution, to a non existent problem!"

I met Col. Cooper on several occasions, one time at the ranch at Christmas, no training going on.

He made a literal comment about me to my Son, Michael was a tad taller than he was, putting his arm around my Sons shoulder, he said "Your Dad is quite a fine fellow, except for his penchant for that Pip Squeak calibre, the 9mm"
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