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Old July 9, 2009, 10:05 PM   #26
simonkenton
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Randy Wakeman makes a Savage vent liner that is good for, maybe, 300 shots.

I don't shoot my Savage that often, I use factory vent liners, and replace about every 80 shots, no problem.
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Old July 9, 2009, 10:05 PM   #27
AdmiralB
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The vent liner is what does need to be replaced. $3 add's but quickly.
Come on. The liner lasts 50-100 shots; worst-case, that's $0.06 per shot. You save a LOT more than that with the ability to use smokeless.
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Old July 9, 2009, 10:52 PM   #28
FrontierGander
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trust me, when you shoot as much as i do, it adds up quick!! I think i have close to a dozen tins of #11 caps ive shot since december '08. The only store that sells them in town, i bought out and it took them 2 years to get their replacements :barf:
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Old July 10, 2009, 12:06 AM   #29
davem
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Okay, I'm going to reveal my ignorance on in-lines- what is a vent liner?
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Old July 10, 2009, 01:33 AM   #30
UtahHunting
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Okay, I'm going to reveal my ignorance on in-lines- what is a vent liner?
I too would like to know what this is.....and I shoot an inline.
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Old July 10, 2009, 05:33 AM   #31
220combat
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A vent liner is nothing you have (or have to worry about) unless you have a Savage 10ML
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Old July 10, 2009, 08:40 AM   #32
AdmiralB
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I think i have close to a dozen tins of #11 caps ive shot since december '08.

Right, so that's 1200 shots. At 50 per vent liner, you'd have gone through 24 vent liners for $24.

You spend about twice that much on caps. If you're using 50 grains of powder per round, you went through 8.5 pounds - at $18/lb (a conservative price), you're into that for $153. If you're shooting an inline, you're probably shooting saboted bullets - add at least $0.45 per for that and your total for that 1200 shots is over $750. $24 (probably inflated) doesn't sound like much to me, in comparison.
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Old July 10, 2009, 08:47 AM   #33
AdmiralB
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Okay, I'm going to reveal my ignorance on in-lines- what is a vent liner?
It's not really very well-named. 'Vent' is what the British called the touch-hole on cannons. In fact, the name persists today - the gun used in British tanks from the mid-'60s through today uses separate ammo components, and the charges are in combustible semirigid bags. As such, there's no primer, so there's a 'vent tube' in the breech that has a stack of what amounts to primer charges for ignition.

I think Savage figured that the higher pressures and combustion temps of smokeless would wear the flash channel at a more rapid pace than BP, so they made the 'business end' removable. The breech plug has a fairly large internal diameter up until the last 3/8" or so at the powder end. It's threaded there, and the 'vent liner' - which is nothing more than a flat-head cap screw, drilled through center - threads in from the muzzle side.

The hole through the screw serves as the flash channel into the powder, and when it wears (hole erodes/increases in size), you pull the breech plug, remove the screw (allen wrench), and replace it.
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Old July 10, 2009, 02:24 PM   #34
davem
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I am going to continue with some more in-line related questions. Hope others on this thread are also getting some much needed info.
On the 777 powder. Right now I have Pyrodex rifle and FFg and FFFg Black powder. Is there something about 777 that makes it preferable?
Scope mounts. Can regular Weaver style bases and rings be used? Why are there special scope mounts for in-lines?
The Break top action- is there any advantage to that style?
Anyone shoot the .451" (44 magnum HXP Hornaday) pistol bullets in sabots for whitetail or are they old tech. Everyone seems to like the 250 gr. SST.
After shooting at the range, I am thinking if Pyrodex is more corrosive than black powder it might be best to give the bore at least a rough cleaning right at the range and then another at home. I don't think hot soapy water will work so...what type of cleaning fluids do you use to clean up a in-line. If you are shooting plastic sabots is there special products to get rid of plastic fouling?
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Old July 10, 2009, 02:38 PM   #35
AdmiralB
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777 uses sugar (or something like it) as the fuel, instead of charcoal. It also omits sulfur, which is why it's harder to ignite.

I've never used it, but the situation seems to be:

1. It's more powerful than BP or Pyrodex, on a unit volume basis
2. Its residue is somewhat less corrosive (still needs cleaning though)
3. It's sensitive to compression - its performance is significantly affected by how hard you ram down that ball/bullet
4. Because of 3 above, it has a reputation (in pistols at least) for inconsistency.
5. It builds up 'crud rings' of residue around the breech plug in rifles. Savage recommends breaking the threads loose, then retightening, after every shot with 777 in the ML10.


I don't know that Pyrodex is any more or less corrosive than real BP. I only use real BP (revolvers) or smokeless (ML10). I live about ten minutes from the range I use, and I generally clean my BP guns within two or three hours of use. I don't know why hot water wouldn't work for Pyrodex cleanup, though.

Depending upon what's made for your particular gun, there's no reason you can't use Weaver-style hardware. I don't care for it, myself, but that's a personal thing.

Break-tops have an advantage in that the action length is shorter than bolt-types, by four or five inches. A disadvantage (shared with all hammer actions) is lock time; bolt guns are quicker.

.451 bullets aren't .44 caliber...those would be .430. There are sabots for shooting .430s in a .50 bore, but I've not used them.
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Old July 10, 2009, 03:45 PM   #36
bejay
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I often wait a day or 2 before cleaning my rifle and just use soapy water ive used both pyrodex and 777 and dont really see much difference between them other than 777 is a little more powerful, I dont use 777 in any percusion cap guns anymore as it does not have very reliable ignition some may say it was overcompressed but in reality it just needs a little hotter ignition to be reliable, ive never had a problem with ignition of 777 in the 209 primer inlines regardless of how much you compress it.
have used hornadys xtp pistol bullets in a sabot and they are plenty good enough for hunting although they may not be the latest and greatest.
if you shoot alot you can usually save by buying sabots and pistol bullets seperatly and I preffer the harvestor crush rib sabot from cabelas as they do load alot easier allowing you to get a few more shots before runing a patch down the bore.
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Old July 10, 2009, 03:54 PM   #37
FrontierGander
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All i use is pyrodex rs * sometimes pyrodex P* and then i used strictly 3f goex in my flintlocks. I've bought and **** t7 but it was not consistent for me from one outing to the next. Some rifles will prefer a different powder over the next. I had an optima & winchester Apex that wanted pyrodex P and an omega/winchester and wanted pyrodex rs.

This corrosive powder issue just makes me shake my head. Why would you spend a good deal of money on an investment and then cry over cleaning it? Clean the darn thing so it will stay in top condition and last you a life time.
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Old July 10, 2009, 04:00 PM   #38
AdmiralB
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Why would you spend a good deal of money on an investment and then cry over cleaning it?
Who's crying? I said it's nice, not having to jump right on it.

What's nicer is having the 10th, or 100th, bullet load as easily as the first. And using 30% of the powder charge to achieve 130% of the velocity. Since you're a price-sensitive guy I'd think the big money savings in powder would be significant.
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Old July 10, 2009, 04:35 PM   #39
FrontierGander
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Smokeless is not for me. I havent hunted with a centerfire since i started muzzleloading in 2000. Smokeless also is not legal in colorado.
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Old July 10, 2009, 06:33 PM   #40
davem
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Thanks to all for the help, I think I'll pass for now on the 777 and keep using what I have.
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