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Old June 19, 2009, 10:12 AM   #1
Tombstonejim
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Arizona considers legal concealed carry

Legislature to debate allowing Arizonans to carry concealed weapons without a permit


By Howard Fischer
Capitol Media Services
Published/Last Modified on Friday, Jun 19, 2009 - 02:16:12 am MST


PHOENIX — Are you 18? Not convicted of a crime?

Legislation set for debate today would let you carry a concealed weapon without having to bother with the background check, training and proficiency test now required.

Sen. Sylvia Allen, R-Snowflake, said she believes all Arizonans should have the right to defend themselves. Allen, who does have a state-issued permit to carry a concealed gun, said she does not believe that makes gun owners any safer.

More to the point, she said the law makes Arizonans less safe.




Allen’s proposal, SB 1270, does not do away with the concealed weapon permits. In fact, it actually would give those who do decide to get those permits the right to carry their guns into places now off limits, ranging from school campuses in certain circumstances to various public events and buildings — including, as the measure is now worded, the public gallery of the state Senate.

Her proposal drew alarm from Attorney General Terry Goddard along with a handful of police chiefs and sheriffs.

“This bill would made a radical and very dangerous change in state law,” Goddard said at a Thursday press conference. “It would put our law enforcement officers at significant increased risk.”

El Mirage Police Chief Mike Frazier said what Allen has proposed in SB 1270 would change how officers deal with the public.

“We’ve worked very hard to develop relationships within the community,” he said. Frazier said that means officers, in general, assume that most people they deal with are not hiding a gun.

“Now you’re concerned that every person you come into contact with is armed,” Frazier said. “And I can tell you, that will change the dynamic between the way we treat citizens that we deal with every day.”

But Allen said the protests against loosening state gun laws ignore a basic fact: Criminals don’t obey the laws we have now.

“Criminals could care less about any of the gun laws we pass,” she said.

“Gun laws are to resrict me, the law abiding citizen,” Allen continued. “It’s not to restrict the criminal.”

Frazier conceded the point.

“I realize that criminals are going to carry guns,” he said.

“That’s why they’re criminals,” Frazier said. “But we’re talking about now having to be overly concerned about who may, in thinking they’re doing the right thing, pull a weapon in trying to assist us and, in fact, make things worse.”

Virtually anyone is entitled to carry a weapon in the open, a constitutional right going back to territorial days. But the idea of concealed weapons permits is a more recent legislative creation, dating only to 1994.

Goddard said lawmakers wanted to be sure that only those with additional training got to carry weapons out of sight.

Phoenix Police Chief Jack Harris said one of the things that training does is tell people that they should always tell an approaching police officer that they are armed. Nothing in the law, however, actually requires such disclosure.

Goddard, who intends to run for governor next year, said he also is concerned with provisions in SB 1270 that would let those who do decide to get permits to take their guns some places not now allowed.

For example, the measure would allow anyone with a state permit to go onto school grounds with that gun “for the purpose of picking up or dropping off a student.”

Allen said that exception is justified.

“They’re law-abiding citizens,” she said. “They’re not out to do any harm.”

Allen said she sometimes keeps her gun in her vehicle.

“So I take my grandchildren to school,” she continued. “All of a sudden, oh my gosh, I am breaking the law dropping them off at school, I have got to run back home and take that out of my car.”

Bringing the weapon into the school, however, would remain forbidden.

But the special privileges would not not end there.

The wording of the legislation would let those with state permits take their concealed weapons into many public buildings, including the Senate. Allen said she has no concern with people with concealed weapons coming into the building where she works.

“They’re law-abiding citizens,” she said.

“You won’t even know they have anything,” Allen continued. “They aren’t going to use it unless their life is threatened.”
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Old June 19, 2009, 11:00 AM   #2
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I like the way this lady thinks ! I hope she is successful.
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Old June 19, 2009, 01:45 PM   #3
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There is another article here.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...9guns0619.html

Law-enforcement officials are working to quash a proposal that would allow gun owners in Arizona to carry concealed weapons without a permit.

The proposal, which is scheduled to be heard today in the Senate Judiciary Committee, has sparked a debate over what restrictions should be placed on gun owners who wish to carry weapons in public buildings, schools and other places.

Opponents said the bill would endanger law-enforcement officers and the public by eliminating permits and the training courses now required to obtain them.

$60 permit since the concealed-carry law was established in 1994.

Senate Bill 1270, sponsored by Sen. Sylvia Allen, would make the safety course optional. It also would allow people to carry guns into public buildings and onto school campuses if they were picking up their children or responding to an emergency.

Supporters of the bill say existing concealed-carry laws are confusing and can lead to unfair prosecution. A woman could be arrested for a concealed-carry violation if she was driving in her car and inadvertently placed a newspaper on top of a gun in the passenger's seat, they say.

Gun owners who want to untuck their shirts to conceal a weapon when they walk into a store shouldn't have to take a training course, said John Wentling, vice president of the Arizona Citizens Defense League.

"Do you need a permit to untuck your shirt? Do you need training to untuck your shirt?" Wentling said. "It's just too subjective."

Police chiefs around the state have objected to the proposal, saying it would heighten tensions between officers and the community. By increasing the number of gun owners who have not received safety training, it could increase the potential for tragic accidents, they said.

"It's going to put officers on edge," said Mike Frazier, police chief of El Mirage. "Who's armed? Who's not? Who's the victim? Who's the subject? There are a lot of issues involved there."

But Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio said he would support the bill, saying carriers of concealed weapons should not face permit requirements when people who carry their weapons openly do not.

"A gun is a gun, whether it's concealed or not," Arpaio said.

If passed, Arizona would become the third state to allow gun owners to carry concealed weapons without a permit, after Alaska and Vermont. Of states that allow concealed weapons, 39 require a permit or training, according to the Attorney General's Office.

Allen, the bill's sponsor, said critics of the bill have overreacted. Violent crime will decrease if the bill passes, she said.

"Law enforcement is never in support of citizens protecting themselves," said Allen, R-Snowflake. "Why do we have to pass a law that says, 'This is the only way you're going to protect yourself'? . . . It's a God-given, constitutional right that you have."

by Casey Newton - Jun. 19, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic.
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Old June 23, 2009, 10:07 PM   #4
Michael Anthony
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If Arizona allows open carry without a permit, I could see those who prefer concealed carry thinking its not fair. Any change that streamlines a states gun laws is a good change though. I won't weigh in on whether or not I agree with permits in general, but at this point I think it should be one way or the other. Everyone needs permits or everyone doesn't. A good argument could probably change my mind though as I'm not exactly committed.

Something about Frazier's statements really unsettle me though. It's more of a tactical consideration then a legal one though.

Quote:
Frazier said that means officers, in general, assume that most people they deal with are not hiding a gun.
Only foolhardy officers.

Quote:
"It's going to put officers on edge," said Mike Frazier, police chief of El Mirage. "Who's armed? Who's not? Who's the victim? Who's the subject? There are a lot of issues involved there."
Good officers stay on edge. Everyone's armed. Everyone's a subject. Determine otherwise, then relax.
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Old June 23, 2009, 10:26 PM   #5
kennybs plbg
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SB1270 was passed friday according to State Legislature site. Lots of hype but this boiled down to a choice of covering your weapon with your shirt when walking into a place of business or remain open carry. As big joe said in Phoenix " a gun is a gun why should a law abiding citizen have to pay $100 for that right".
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Old June 23, 2009, 10:38 PM   #6
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so if it passed, does that mean you can just carry in the places where normally you couldn't that were mentioned in the bill... or was there more to it? It seemed like they were trying to ease up on the carry laws... SOMEONE SMART, PLEASE EXPLAIN!!!
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Old June 23, 2009, 10:41 PM   #7
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Just read it at http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/1r/bills/sb1270p.pdf And it seems as though they've made it so you can conceal your weapon without a permit -- any other opinions?
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Old June 23, 2009, 10:44 PM   #8
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To me, (specifically) it sounds completely reasonable.

But, how it will play out in the MSM will be seen.

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Old June 23, 2009, 10:56 PM   #9
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yeah... Allen will be blamed and flogged for the first death(s) caused by someone carrying "legally"
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Old June 23, 2009, 11:05 PM   #10
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Well, due to the fact that some bad advice from FFL dealers cost me my ability to carry concealed legally without getting an AZ CHL, I welcome this bill. My carry leather has felt lonely.

In case you were wondering, my TX CHL was perfectly valid as long as I had my TX driver's license, but all the local dealers whined about having to deal with my mil ID and a copy of my orders to AZ when I bought guns, so they told me to get an AZ ID card in addition to my TX DL. Bam, AZ ID equals residency, and no non-resident CHLs are allowed in AZ, so both my TX and WA CHLs became invalid as long as I'm in the state. If I go to any other state where my permits are reciprocated, they're valid. Dumb, isn't it?
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Old June 23, 2009, 11:15 PM   #11
maestro pistolero
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I really don't see a problem. You are either a prohibited person or you are not. It works just fine in Alaska and Vermont, they have no problems even when examined on a per-capita basis, so why not? Here in Nevada, you don't need any special permit to LOC or have a loaded gun in your car (not concealed on your person, but on the seat, or anywhere else in the car) Again, no problems from those not otherwise prohibited. The police simply don't care, unless you are prohibited, or abusing the right somehow.

It's actually funny to me to listen to a typical anti-gun extremist's dramatic, irrational fear-driven, panicked story about what will happen when everyone is 'packing heat' like the old west. I do have sympathy for their fears, but in the same way I would have compassion for a mentally ill person who suffers from hallucinations. It's sad, but comical at the same time.

If you are a felon, convicted wife-beater, drug-abuser, or nutcase, you are already prohibited. There is built in permission for the police to haul YOU off, and leave the REST OF US alone.

Last edited by maestro pistolero; June 24, 2009 at 12:00 AM.
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Old June 23, 2009, 11:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Her proposal drew alarm from Attorney General Terry Goddard along with a handful of police chiefs and sheriffs.

“This bill would made a radical and very dangerous change in state law,” Goddard said at a Thursday press conference. “It would put our law enforcement officers at significant increased risk.”
Well, I dont think LEO's are at risk in other places, like Vermont or Alaska. Wonder what it is about Arizona citizens that makes them less responsible. Maybe someone should ask him.

In every instance, the reason some gas bag bureaucrat gives for not wanting citizens to be allowed to carry guns is that they can't be trusted. No matter that the citzens in the 40 States that allow CCW have demonstrated they can be.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Red Bull again.
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Old June 24, 2009, 04:36 AM   #13
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Hmm. Though i already have my CCW permit now, this would be nice I think. My roommate doesn't have his CCW, but he is as responsible as I and I think if for whatever reason he wanted to borrow my revolver and CCW it, why not? Granted, I'm a better shot than he is when it comes to .357 mag but I digress...

I'm more looking forward to this if it lifts some restrictions of where a person could carry. In AZ, we're not allowed to carry in a place that serves alcohol. That law really irked the hell out of me when I was downtown with my ladyfriend and some drunken... jerk... in a frenzy wanted to fight me for no other reason other than I looked in his direction when he was making a scene. Luckily for me the place we had just left had about 5 giant bouncers that knew my ladyfriend personally and put the situation to a quick close, but what if we had been alone?
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Old June 24, 2009, 06:28 AM   #14
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Goddard was grandstanding, admitted he's running for Gov next year. The bill has zero chance of dying in the Senate, 29 members, 22 are sponsors or co-sponsors of the bill. He knew he couldn't stop it, just getting other valley political appointees to back him up for his Gov run as a Demo.
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Old June 24, 2009, 09:36 AM   #15
maestro pistolero
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Quote:
in a frenzy wanted to fight me for no other reason other than I looked in his direction when he was making a scene. Luckily for me the place we had just left had about 5 giant bouncers that knew my ladyfriend personally and put the situation to a quick close, but what if we had been alone?
Not the best example. How would a firearm have helped unless the guy was brandishing? Pepper spray is your best friend in a case like that. Soak his face, and once he is blinded and in excruciating pain, exit stage left. When in a safe place, call it in.
Those of us who carry should train our brain to envision a scale of escalating force, to get beyond the knee-jerk thought that lethal force is the first option. Sometimes it is. Usually, overwhelmingly, it is not. Ask any cop about the ratio of non-lethal, to lethal force that is called for in his experience.

Sorry to diverge from the topic, hope this helps someone make a good decision.

NOW, BACK TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAMMING.
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Old June 24, 2009, 02:34 PM   #16
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Well I meant it in such a was as I don't know if he had weapons or not, and of course I'd avoid the confrontation at all costs. Brandishing your own is often enough to diffuse the situation if it even gets that far. I was just miffed that I was caught with my pants down so to speak. If I really needed it that night... I didn't have it!
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Old June 24, 2009, 03:40 PM   #17
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If I really needed it that night... I didn't have it!
I hear ya'
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Old July 2, 2009, 12:28 AM   #18
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http://www.kpho.com/politics/19905053/detail.html

Quote:
PHOENIX -- The sponsor of a bill that would have allowed people to carry concealed weapons without a permit says she is holding the bill until next year.

The bill also would have allowed people who do have permits to carry a concealed weapon to a school while dropping off or picking up a child.

State Sen. Sylvia Allen said on Tuesday that she wanted more time to work out concerns from other lawmakers and Gov. Jan Brewer's office.

Arizona law requires a safety course and background check to carry a gun that is not visible.

The Arizona Department of Public Safety reports that more than 127,000 Arizonans have permits to carry concealed weapons.
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