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Old June 14, 2009, 03:56 PM   #26
Dwight55
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If it is an LEO with the taser and the commands, . . . he has my full attention and cooperation.

If it is not an LEO, . . . there will be an article in the newspaper about an old geezer who pulled a .45 on the taser holder.

Outcome details are yet to be worked out, . . . but I kinda think it may work out for the taser guy, . . . like the guy who brought a knife to the gunfight.

Either way, . . . it ain't gonna be pretty.

May God bless,
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Old June 14, 2009, 04:06 PM   #27
Lost Sheep
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Recovering from a Tasering

Quote:
Originally Posted by surg_res

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost Sheep
A man in Crestview, Florida was tasered on April 25, 2009 and when the juice was turned off, successfully drew a concealed weapon and killed the two Deputies who were arresting him.
I can't find anything in the article about a taser, still confused by that story.
sorry about that. I linked to an early newspaper report which did not have that detail without re-reading it. Here is a clip from "The Officer Down Memorial Page, Inc."

http://odmp.org/officer/19925-deputy...en-(skip)-york
Quote:
Originally Posted by from odmp.org/officer/19925-deputy-sheriff-warren-(skip)-york
Deputy Sheriff Warren (Skip) York
Okaloosa County Sheriff's Office
Florida
End of Watch: Saturday, April 25, 2009

Biographical Info
Age: 44
Tour of Duty: 2 years
Badge Number: 260

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire
Date of Incident: Saturday, April 25, 2009
Weapon Used: Gun; Unknown type
Suspect Info: Shot and killed

Deputy Skip York and Deputy Burt Lopez were shot and killed while attempting arrest a domestic violence suspect.

The deputies were following up on a domestic assault report they had taken hours earlier, and located the suspect at a gun club in Crestview. The suspect was in the parking lot standing next to his truck. Deputy Lopez and Deputy York approached the suspect, had a brief conversation with him, and then informed him he was going to be arrested. As the deputies moved to handcuff the him, he became uncooperative and began to resist arrest. Deputy York fired his Taser (conducted energy device) and hit the suspect. The suspect dropped to the ground during the five-second jolt of electricity. When the Taser cycle ended, the suspect immediately drew a concealed handgun and opened fire. Deputy Lopez was able to radio for assistance while he and Deputy York engaged the suspect in a gun battle.
There is more, but this is the part that mentions the Taser. I will edit my original post. Thanks for catching that.

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Old June 14, 2009, 04:46 PM   #28
azredhawk44
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Quote:
1. A Taser, the product sold by Taser International, is not somthing that the average crook can get their hands on. The buyer is run through a background check. Though I do not understand all of the nuts 'n bolts of the check, I know it is thorough.
Untruthiness.

Tasers are sold over the counter at Fry's Electronics in Phoenix Arizona by $7/hr checkout clerks. The ones with projectile leads that reach 15 feet (C2 model).

There is a manufacturer activation check.

I'm willing to bet that this can be circumvented rather easily. A set of DIP switches to put in a particular order based upon the unit serial number (told over the phone during the activation process), or something like that. They don't have USB ports or a computer interface, so the activation process has to be simplistic.

Also, the manufacturer check is not face to face. I could call with your driver's license that I picked from you earlier. "Register" it in your name. Get the activation procedure.

Can anyone shed light on the taser registration process?
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Old June 14, 2009, 05:04 PM   #29
Lost Sheep
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Setting off a round? Unlikely, but possible

Quote:
Originally Posted by surg_res
I don't think that a taser, or other electrical source, could detonate a rifle or pistol round unless it is specifically designed to do so. I would guess that to generate a spark there would have to be capacitance generated between two surfaces not in direct contact with one another.
There are four ways that immediately come to mind to set of a round electrically.

One: Spark, as you suggest, but which, as you also suggest, is unlikely. The metal in a cartridge is in close contact and highly unlikely to allow any capacitance/voltage differential to generate a spark inside. The current will simply flow through the metal, bypassing the priming compound and powder entirely.

Two: Heat. I heard about a guy who happened to have a few 22 rimfire catridges occupying the same pocket as a nine-volt battery. When contact was made, current flowed through the metallic cartridge casing(s) generating enough heat to ignite the priming compound. That was hearsay, of course. But the science is sound. I witnessed a guy get second degree burns when his metallic wristwatch band contacted two wires (12 volts) under a dashboard while working on his car radio. The burns were very small in area, but it only took a fraction of a second. The watch was unaffected. His wrist healed in a week or so. The watchband had some discoloration it took a magnifying glass to see.

The Taser does not generate very much amperage, so I am not sure how much heat could be generated by one and getting it to flow through a cartridge inside a gun would be problematic (the actual heat-generating electrons tend to flow across the surface of a conductor, all other things being equal), but it would be easy to arrange an experiment. Take a primer or a live round, put it inside a box sufficient to contain a small explosion (a plywood box or a fish cooler should do) and hook up one of the hand-held electrical "stun gun" devices to it through wires. Typically, they deliver 20,000 to 50,000 volts, depending on what model you have. If you can't cook off a naked round in that situation, I am pretty sure you won't be able to set off one contained inside a gun, holstered or not.
DO NOT TRY THIS WITH A ROUND IN A GUN!!!. The uncontained round that cooks off inside a box will just send pieces of itself inside the box at relatively low velocities. A round that cooks of inside a chamber will be just like firing the gun, and if the box does not contain the bullet, you have a negligent discharge of a firearm with probable damage and possible injuries or death. A round that cooks off inside a magazine will probably damage the mag, the grips and maybe the gun. Caveat emptor.
Three: If the contacts of the leads to the stun gun are not in intimate contact with the cartridge, you will get arcing and sparking between the contact and the cartridge. If that generates enough heat in the air to heat the priming compound, maybe the round will go off,

Four: Magnetically induced eddy currents could produce heat or spark inside the priming compound. This is a REAL STRETCH. Vanishingly unlikely.

So, protected by the metal shell of the cartridge casing, I think it would be impossible to set off a cartridge with a Taser. Furthur protected by the metal shell of the gun, I would not worry about it. As in all things firearms related, I hesitate to say impossible (hence my subject line), but highly, highly unlikely.

Or you could run the experiment.

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Old June 14, 2009, 05:12 PM   #30
JohnH1963
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Just about anything and everything weapon related is sold at a gun show to include tasers and taser-like weapons. Im certain that a criminal could get their hands on one without being run through background checks. There are also many gunstores in states with very liberal gun laws that sell these things.
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Old June 14, 2009, 07:46 PM   #31
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I work at a large church and am the overseer of our Safety Ministry. Our trained security guards carry different models of Tasers. The full size (think bigger than an M9 Beretta) are used by our uniformed guards and the compacts are worn by plain clothed individuals in the auditorium.

All civilian models come with 15' leads, the LE models come with 30' leads. Civilians cannot buy 30' models. The M18/M26 civilian model has a 5 second pulse @ around 100,000 volts. After the discharge there is a programmed 3 second pause where you cannot discharge again.

The C-2 models (cell phone-ish in design) have 15' leads only, no LE models. When fired it discharges for 30 seconds. Discharge starts @ 100,000 volts for the first 5 seconds, then reduces to 50,000 volts for 25 seconds. This marketed to women as the fire and forget weapon (read fire and bail out) taser.

The activation process was very straight forward. Access their portion of the website for Taser activation. Punch in the model and serial numbers and they give you a numerical code. To input the code you press the fire button the amount of times given by your code (example- code= 4567. press fire button 4 times wait for ready light to blink, press fire button 5 times wait for ready light to blink...)

In my opinion the C-2 is the best value and the safest one to use (30 second firing time). We use the M26 a visible deterrent (of course we would use it though if needed).

I have no experience with the X26, but by watching their video on it you can add, in 5 second blocks the amount of time the weapon will discharge by pulling the trigger, 5 extra pulls = 25 seconds added.
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Old June 14, 2009, 08:22 PM   #32
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azredhaw44

Before you go calling someone a liar, make sure read the facts:

Quote:
Yes. The TASER C2 device is inactive at the time of purchase and requires the owner to register the devices with TASER International and pass a felony background check before receiving the activation code. This may be completed online or over the phone for a one-time fee of $9.95. Some states and cities may have additional requirements.
My source? http://www.taser.com/research/Pages/ConsumerFAQs.aspx

Sure, it could be circumvented. Doesn't make my statement "untruthiness" or any other made up word you can come up with...
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Old June 14, 2009, 08:46 PM   #33
surg_res
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Lost Sheep,
I read the article you posted. I hate to read about LEOs killed by doing their duty. I wonder if the taser was a bad choice in this situation. To me, tasers are more like a shot of Haldol and should be reserved for uncooperative suspects or psychotics who are physically difficult to apprehend secondary to their size or intoxication, etc (i.e. the 250 pound schizophrenic who is rampaging naked through an intersection swinging a garden hose at cars.
As for the man being apprehended at a gun range, of all places, his lack of cooperation should have been viewed as a dangerous situation.
I assume these barbs are disposable?
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Old June 15, 2009, 10:06 AM   #34
Enoy21
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I think that my biggest concern would not be the electrical charge detonating a bullet. But the electrical charge spasming my trigger finger repeatedly. as I'm losing motor skills and firing in very unsafe or unintended directions.


I would say this is a weapon that it is relitivley safe to test with and find out. Empty a firearm , ( Glock would be my choice ) Point it in a safe direction and allow yourselve to get tased. Check to see if the trigger Safety lock kicked in after being tased.
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Old June 16, 2009, 09:23 AM   #35
bdturner
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I use a Tasers at work everyday. I have seen and shot several agressive inmates that would not respond to any other means to stop them. In our facility we use a taser as a last resort. The inmate that resists after a good dose of OC spray takes the five second thrill ride.
Quote:
Wear a vest that the barbs cannot penetrate. Maybe leather.
Sorry but that will not work the taser works through very thick clothing. I am not going to tell you how much it takes to stop it for the officers who use one but I assure you a leather coat is nothing.

One point to remember a taser does not work on pain compliance as OC spray does even though the taser does cause pain. The taser works on sensory overload and is like unplugging your muscles. The more muscular the person being shot the more effect it has on them.
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Old June 16, 2009, 10:35 AM   #36
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I have a pacemaker, so does anyone know if a taser would affect it?
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Old June 16, 2009, 10:41 AM   #37
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TINFOIL!!!!

Works great fer me against all forms of nervous system assault.
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Old June 16, 2009, 12:32 PM   #38
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Chain mail! Might also get the sward and shield.
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Old June 16, 2009, 10:54 PM   #39
Crosshair
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DougO83

You are lying, check the rest of the FAQ you posted. The part where it says. This may be completed online or over the phone for a one-time fee of $9.95.

So yes, criminals can easily get their hands on them. I see them for sale all over the place. The "activation" bit is a small speed bump.

Honestly, how hard is it to steal someones ID and activate it using that? Anything preventing me from using my 3 year old cousins ID to activate these? How hard would it be for someone to just go in override that? I am not aware of anyone showing how inherently easy or difficult such a thing would be. People have hacked voting machines with ease, how long would it take to figure out a Tazer?

We only have Taser Co's word that it is secure and not much else.
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Old June 16, 2009, 11:01 PM   #40
DougO83
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Quote:
You are lying, check the rest of the FAQ you posted
.

I did. Nothing I typed negates any part of that.

Quote:
The part where it says. This may be completed online or over the phone for a one-time fee of $9.95.
How does this change the fact that a background check is required and that the average crook can't pick one up? Oh...it doesn't.

Quote:
So yes, criminals can easily get their hands on them.
Oh? Have you ever seen a criminal buy one? How many cases have they been used in? Have you ever sold one to a criminal? Ever asked a criminal to try and buy one? I am guessing that the answers will be: 'no' 'i don't know' 'no' and 'no'

Quote:
I see them for sale all over the place.
English lesson: "for sale" and "sold" and "in criminal possession" are not synonyms.


Quote:
The "activation" bit is a small speed bump.
Agreed, but those who are literate would see that I never said anything about the comparative difficulty of getting the Taser.


Quote:
Honestly, how hard is it to steal someones ID and activate it using that?
I don't know. You don't either. So you made yourself look like an ass by calling me aliar while being totally uninformed.

Quote:
Anything preventing me from using my 3 year old cousins ID to activate these?
Yes, the fact that you have to present the ID when you make the purchase. And, this part is strictly from the rep at a cop shop I buy ammo at: the information is recorded and must match when you do the phone/net registration.

Quote:
How hard would it be for someone to just go in override that?
Override what? The Taser that I looked at has no external hookup to a computer, etc. That leads me to believe that it is activated like a cell phone. How does one hack that signal?


Quote:
I am not aware of anyone showing how inherently easy or difficult such a thing would be.
Hi-lited for relevance. This has summed up all that you have typed so far.


Quote:
People have hacked voting machines with ease, how long would it take to figure out a Tazer?
This has absolutely zero relevance as to whether or not there is an activation process for a Taser...try again.


to summarize: Crosshair...did you read my original post? Apparently not. I said it had to be registered and that a background screen was done. I did not say anything about how easy or difficult it would be to circumvent that system. However, from talking with a rep at my local cop shop, they ask for a little bit more than your DL#. You gotta do some pretty swift work to get all of the necessary info. What part of that is lying, exactly? Please, tell me...
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Last edited by DougO83; June 16, 2009 at 11:18 PM.
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Old June 24, 2009, 04:22 PM   #41
Skans
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Drop sideways, roll and run. Tasers are a 1-shot device and both prongs need to hit you. Plus, it's only air propelled, thus relatively slow in comparison to a bullet.

Or, wear tinfoil lined clothing.

Last edited by Skans; June 24, 2009 at 04:28 PM.
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Old June 25, 2009, 06:21 PM   #42
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Do not use tasers on Frankenstein. Anyway, I have a PDF at work on a case study of a person who caught one lead in the head and then had a seizure. Might have been prone to such.
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Old June 25, 2009, 06:56 PM   #43
Aqeous
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Mythbusters


Episode 10: Explosive Decompression, Frog Giggin', Rear Axle

".22 caliber bullet as a automobile fuse. As the story kind of goes, some people were returning on a trip and shorted a fuse. They used a bullet as a fuse and continued driving. Later on, the bullet suddenly fired and hit the driver in a sensitive area."


What I gathered from watching that episode was that electrical current can in fact pass over the metal surface of a bullet without detonating it. In this episode they had to significantly rig the trucks electrical system (to absurd proportions) to such a degree that they burned out the wiring, the resulting HEAT that that much current created was able to fire the round. Burning out everything in the process.


To my knowledge a Tazer fires a repeating AC impulse and does not generate that kind of heat. So no it will not fire your gun
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Old June 26, 2009, 12:47 AM   #44
Lost Sheep
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Taser cycle ended, the suspect immediately drew...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacerdude
I have a pacemaker, so does anyone know if a taser would affect it?
I would guess it could damage your pacemaker. Others say no, pacemakers are designed to stand up to defibrillators. I don't know. Try googling "Pacemaker and Taser". Share with us what you find.

Quote:
Originally Posted by surg_res
Lost Sheep,
I read the article you posted. I hate to read about LEOs killed by doing their duty. I wonder if the taser was a bad choice in this situation. To me, tasers are more like a shot of Haldol and should be reserved for uncooperative suspects or psychotics who are physically difficult to apprehend secondary to their size or intoxication, etc (i.e. the 250 pound schizophrenic who is rampaging naked through an intersection swinging a garden hose at cars.
As for the man being apprehended at a gun range, of all places, his lack of cooperation should have been viewed as a dangerous situation.
I assume these barbs are disposable?
This guy appeared to be unarmed at the time of first contact. The guns he had been shooting at the range not within his reach. He was a big guy and worked as a bouncer at a local bar. When he became combative, one of the officers tased him in an appropriate use of force in the situation at the time. "When the Taser cycle ended, the suspect immediately drew a concealed handgun and opened fire". Everything went right, until it went wrong. He entered his truck and drove off, still fighting with one of the officers.

The first article I posted was incomplete (sorry about that), the second one (the one on odmp.org/officer/19925-deputy-sheriff-warren-(skip)-york) has a better description of the events.

I shocked myself with a hand-held "stun gun" thing on the thigh because I wondered how effective they were. It was no big deal, but it was too much for me to be willing to try it out on my torso. So, from my experience and from the story coming out of Florida, obviously, they can be recovered from, and fairly quickly, too. There is no such thing as a "magic bullet".

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