The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Curios and Relics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 9, 2009, 09:39 AM   #1
mike6541
Member
 
Join Date: April 9, 2008
Location: mass.
Posts: 19
C&R makarovs

Can someone set me straight answer as far as the Russian
Makarovs go? Are they all c&r eligible?
The ATF book says they are but alot of people say only the military ones.
Some say only the ones with fixed sights.
What about the IJ-70s do they qualify?
All the ATF list says is" Makarov,pistol.Russian and East German
caliber 9mm Makarov".

To me it is what it says. Any Russian Makarov is c&r eligible.
Why all these diff, opinions of what is and what isn't?
mike6541 is offline  
Old June 9, 2009, 10:11 AM   #2
jsmaye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Location: Amarillo, Tx
Posts: 616
In some cases, a pistol is incorrectly called a "Makarov" because it shoots the 9x18mm Makarov round, as opposed to being the true Makarov PM (Pistol Makarova, Russian: Пистолет Макарова). Many of the pistols chambered for the Makarov round are not C&R eligible.
__________________
No matter how big and tough you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone you'll answer it.
jsmaye is offline  
Old June 9, 2009, 11:56 AM   #3
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS (new to MS)
Posts: 4,723
Russian military - yes. Russian commercial (IJ-70) - No. Chinese Norinco - no. Bulgarian - no. East German - Yes, Post-unification Germany - unknown but probably yes.
Doyle is offline  
Old June 9, 2009, 01:47 PM   #4
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,477
Quote:
Some say only the ones with fixed sights.
What about the IJ-70s do they qualify?
IJ-70s don't qualify because they're made by Baikal. The "Makarov... Russian" verbage in the C&R book implies arsenal manufacture for military use, so a Baikal commercial pistol doesn't qualify.

AFAIK all IJ-70s had adjustable sights to pass the GCA "Sporting Purposes" points test for legal importation. Fixed sights indicate that a Makarov might be Russian or East German military and therefore C&R, but they're not the only indication.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak
carguychris is offline  
Old June 9, 2009, 03:55 PM   #5
Wrothgar
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 778
I've been trying to find some real makarovs for sale but have been unsuccessful. Anybody know where to find some?
Wrothgar is offline  
Old June 9, 2009, 04:28 PM   #6
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,477
Quote:
I've been trying to find some real makarovs for sale but have been unsuccessful. Anybody know where to find some?
They pop up on GB from time to time. The East German pistols seem more common than the Russkie ones, but it varies depending on when you look. The trick is distinguishing them from the piles of Baikals, Norincos, Bulgarians, and the not-a-proper-Makarov 9x18 guns such as CZ-82s, FEG PA-63s, and Radom P-64s.

Genuine Russian C&R Maks can be identified by the fixed sights, reddish brown Bakelite grips, blued finish, single-stack magazine, and the absence of non-Cyrillic markings other than import marks. "MADE IN RUSSIA" lettering is a dead giveaway that it's a commercial Baikal/IMEZ gun, as the old military guns were not built for export to imperialistic capitalist states.

AFAIK no company is actively importing C&R Maks, nor has any company done it for several years now.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak
carguychris is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 12:39 AM   #7
BobbyT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2009
Posts: 266
Czech CZ-82s do qualify as C&R, though:

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info....24129b4a5f5bd1
BobbyT is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 08:55 AM   #8
Wrothgar
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 778
I have been looking at the 82s. What are your thoughts, board?
Wrothgar is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 10:43 AM   #9
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS (new to MS)
Posts: 4,723
Plus - higher capacity magazine.
Minus - SIGNIFICANTLY more complex design. A blind monkey can field strip a Makarov. A reasonably skilled shooter can do a detailed strip on it. The CZ, on the other hand, takes some reasonable skill to field strip and a VERY skilled person to detail strip.
Doyle is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 10:57 AM   #10
jsmaye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Location: Amarillo, Tx
Posts: 616
Well, the above post addresses the differences between a CZ vz-82 and a Makarov PM. In general, they are nicer pistols than the comparison suggests.

Quote:
A blind monkey can field strip a Makarov...The CZ, on the other hand, takes some reasonable skill to field strip...
I don't have a Makarov PM, but I have a PA-63 and a vz.82. I thought all three field-strip the same way - remove magazine, pull down on trigger guard, push slide to the rear and remove.
__________________
No matter how big and tough you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone you'll answer it.

Last edited by jsmaye; June 10, 2009 at 11:02 AM.
jsmaye is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 11:02 AM   #11
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,477
Quote:
I have been looking at the 82s. What are your thoughts, board?
I've never fired either but have extensively handled both.

Plus for CZ-82: Heavier, so recoil will be gentler. Higher ammo capacity. Generally better trigger, particularly DA. Better sights than original military fixed Mak sights, which are quite small. More laid-back grip angle feels more natural to most Western shooters, although YMMV. Unlike Mak, can be carried cocked-and-locked, slide can be racked to clear chamber with safety on (IIRC Mak safety must be off to move slide), and it has a positive firing pin return spring, reducing chances of slam-fires if firing pin recess gets really dirty. New magazines still available commercially; uses same ones as .380ACP CZ-83. Much cheaper on today's market because imports are still coming in.

Plus for Mak: Smaller, lighter, slimmer, and less snaggy design is far friendlier for CCW. (This is far and away its biggest advantage.) Far simpler mechanically than CZ-82 and almost every other DA/SA pistol for that matter. Unlike CZ-82, Mak has a mechanical decocker; CZ must be decocked the old-fashioned way by pulling trigger and thumbing hammer down. Classic faux-Art-Deco design looks cooler than more utilitarian and militaristic CZ-82 IMHO. Limited number of imports plus association with Cold War probably equals better collectible value in the long run; KGB agents didn't usually carry CZ-82s.

FWIW despite the seemingly shorter list of pluses, I like the Makarov better.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak
carguychris is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 11:57 AM   #12
Wrothgar
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 778
Another question about the cz82 - i hear the caliber is essentially the same as a .380. What about the gun size? Is it comparable to a SW Walther PPK/S? Is it as concealable?
Wrothgar is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 12:40 PM   #13
carguychris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 5,477
Quote:
Another question about the cz82 - i hear the caliber is essentially the same as a .380. What about the gun size? Is it comparable to a SW Walther PPK/S? Is it as concealable?
The 9x18mm Makarov cartridge roughly splits the difference in power between the .380ACP and 9mm Luger. The CZ-82 is basically identical to the .380ACP CZ-83 in every respect except caliber and finish.

The CZ-82 is a good deal wider, longer, and heavier (~28 oz. vs. ~21 oz. unloaded) than the PPK/S. The CZ-82's grip panels and controls stick out a good deal more than the controls of the PPK/S or Makarov. IMHO the CZ-82, while more concealable than many modern Western double-stack full-size semi-autos, does not hold a candle to the PPK/S or Makarov for CCW.

One of the main reasons why the Makarov is sought after is that it's comparable to the PPK/S in size and easy-to-draw snag-free design, but it's chambered in a harder-hitting caliber, it has a conventional manual slide stop, and it doesn't suffer from the older PPK's "slide bite" problem.

Oh yeah, one other plus for the CZ-82: It has conventional Western-style mag release buttons on the sides of the grip, although IIRC the magazine must still be manually yanked out of the mag well like other older European designs. OTOH the Makarov's mag release is a P38/Luger-style latch on the base of the grip.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak
carguychris is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 12:48 PM   #14
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS (new to MS)
Posts: 4,723
I can't help you with the size comparison but the 9x18 is a tad more potent than a .380. Depending on ammo manufacturer a .380 with a 95 grn bullet leaves the barrel somewhere between 945 and 1000 fps. A 9x18 with a 95 grn bullet leaves the barrel somewhere between 960 and a little over 1100fps.
Doyle is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 12:58 PM   #15
jsmaye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Location: Amarillo, Tx
Posts: 616
Quote:
FWIW despite the seemingly shorter list of pluses, I like the Makarov better.
Me, too - if they were still available on the surplus market I'd have one.
__________________
No matter how big and tough you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone you'll answer it.
jsmaye is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 05:42 PM   #16
Wrothgar
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 778
I went to every gun store in town today and I found something that looked just like a Makarov, but it was made in Poland. It shot the Makarov round -any ideas? I don't remember any other info (it had the store on the grips and said "made in Poland").
Wrothgar is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 07:20 PM   #17
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS (new to MS)
Posts: 4,723
If it was made in Poland, it was probably a P-64. They are fantastic little guns - after you replace the terrible factory hammer spring (about $5.00). I use a P-64 as my carry weapon.
Doyle is offline  
Old June 10, 2009, 08:01 PM   #18
Wrothgar
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 778
Looked up some pictures of those and yep, P-64.

Where do you obtain one of those said springs?
Wrothgar is offline  
Old June 11, 2009, 07:31 AM   #19
jsmaye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2008
Location: Amarillo, Tx
Posts: 616
Wolff Gunsprings - http://www.gunsprings.com/1ndex.html
__________________
No matter how big and tough you are, when a two-year-old hands you a toy phone you'll answer it.
jsmaye is offline  
Old June 11, 2009, 08:32 AM   #20
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS (new to MS)
Posts: 4,723
All the information you would ever want to know about a P-64 can be found on the P-64 resource site and related Forum (yes, I'm a member).
http://www.p64resource.com/
Doyle is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11063 seconds with 9 queries