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Old May 10, 2009, 11:37 AM   #51
LordofWar
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Arranging ammo for 7mm Rem Mag in our part of the world is the most difficult part where a single bullet sells for $10.625 USD per unit that too if/when it is available.

A WSM is a far fetched dream for now.
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Old May 11, 2009, 09:49 AM   #52
ojibweindian
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Medium game at 600+ yards? I wouldn't shoot. That's an additional quarter of a mile I'd have to drag something, in addition to the few miles to get back to the truck.
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Old May 11, 2009, 02:54 PM   #53
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Personally, shooting game beyond 400 yards, whether the gun is capable of it or not, is unethical and improper - there are way too many variables and chances of just wounding an animal.....not acceptable behavior
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Old May 12, 2009, 11:37 AM   #54
GeauxTide
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WSM is Winchester's Sorry Marketing. The triumvirate claim superiority, but don't buck up at the chronograph or the loading bench. On the original topic, I believe that a man should know his limitations. Mine is 300 yards. If I can't get closer, we both walk.
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Old May 12, 2009, 12:49 PM   #55
5whiskey
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For all of the ethics concerns of taking game at 600 yds... the OP asking the question is on the complete opposite side of the world that we're on. We don't know his ability, we don't know his situation, and we don't know his purpose.

War may be talking about protecting crops, or protecting other things. While I certainly agree with everyone who has chimed in on ethical shooting, you have to really think about the application. I know men that I would trust and not question taking shots @ 600 yards... and I DO believe in being as ethical and humane as possible. There are alot of people that shouldn't be shooting beyond 100.



With that, the 7mm rem mag is in every way superior at this range. A flatter trajectory definately helps at that range as you're getting into a healthy bullet drop just by being off in range estimation by 50 yards. It's also the very clear winner in energy delivery. .308 starts to peter out pretty quick beyond the range in question.
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Old May 12, 2009, 02:52 PM   #56
HiBC
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I just picked up my Sierra loading book and pulled out some interesting data.

I realize published data does not favor the full potential of a 7 Rem mag

But the Sierra recommended hunting load for a 160 Spitzer boat tail was 2900 fps.
The recommended hunting load for a .308 165 gr load was 2670 fps.

In each case ,we are playing by the same rules,Sierras recommended hunting load.

Using the criteria of a +/- 5 inches in trajectory,what sierra calls "Max point blank range",the 308 is 320 yds,the 7 mag is 345 yds.

We can quibble over shades of grey,the point is part of the advantage to the long range high velocity magnum is imaginary.

If a person has the basic skill of using a duplex or other reticle feature to estimate range,the trajectory is friendly enough to cover for a bit of range estimation error.Wind and mirage still have some effect,but its manageable at the 300 something ranges

Velocity is high enough to get excellent bullet performance.Once the game has been sighted,all can be acomplished with confidence using only the scope and rifle at the 300 something yard range.

Now,I do shoot targets at 1000 yds,and more.I do have a Leica rangefinder,Sierra's ballistic software,a chronograph,and a 4.5 to 14 Leupold Mark 4 on Nightforce 20 minute bases .It has a Kenton knob calibrated for 162 gr Hornady SST's at 3050 fps at a 5000 ft elevation.Its on a 7 mm Rem mag Laredo.It's my "Watching over spring calving" rifle.

I just suggest game seldom holds a pose where I can see them at 600 yds.
At those ranges,30 yds or so of range estimation error can cause blown backstraps or a broken leg. A thread of wind in the canyon that doesnt touch the leaves can push my bullet.My animal can take a step as the trigger breaks.
Ah,but we can spot the game with binoculars,then switch to the laser rangefinder,then put it down and pick up the rifle and find a position.All of this requires moving.Motion is easily seen.It takes time.Has our animal moved?

Try,early in the morning,dawn,sandbag a riflescope on a target at 600 + yards.Wait till the sun begins to heat the ground,then without touching the scope,look again? How is the elevation? Off 2 or 3 feet?Mirage.It works the same as when we put a stick in water.The stick seems to bend.Mirage appears to move the target.

From the military sniper skills we have learned a lot,and we have new toys.Thats nice.Those military snipers are even better at sneaking up closer to their target that they are at shooting.

Anyway,I'm not a want to be sniper.I have too much respect for the real thing to entertain Walter Mitty fantasies.I know who I am not.

You all,live how you want to,but for me,hunting is different than that.

Unless maybe if I see a coyote....

Last edited by HiBC; May 12, 2009 at 08:21 PM.
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Old May 12, 2009, 05:02 PM   #57
ZeroJunk
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The difference between a clean kill and a nasty wound could be 1/2 inch, or less. A faster similar weight and BC bullet is less effected by gravity and wind over the same range. You can't get around it.

Personally, I can't hit a car at 600 yards.
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Old May 13, 2009, 04:45 PM   #58
Hello123
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Berger 180 grainers 7mm, have BC greater than 7. Slick little bullets. To me, the .308 offers nothing in this arena.

For that matter and that distance, why not build a dedicated rig if money available. How about this: bedded in McMillan A5 stock, remington action trued up or after market action, heavy contour match barrel about 28 inches long plus or minus a brake, and 7mm STW or 7mm ultra mag or 300 win mag or 300 ultra mag. Badger bases and rings plus a leupold 8-25x50 tactical scope.

If money is an issue, get a remington 700 with a nikon monarch scope 4-16 in 7 mag.

Either way give it lots of practice. When you start shooting at distance, it makes you realize that the cerebral game of which is better cartridge wise is not that important, because you realize until you practice more you won't be shooting at distance at live game.
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Old May 13, 2009, 04:54 PM   #59
Hello123
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by the way, I think long range hunting, the 7 rem mag will give more fps, especially useful with the heavy bullets. the wsm has a short neck and with heavy bullets, less case capacity. go with the 7 rm over the wsm. for that matter go with a 300 rum. The 7mag can head space off the shoulder if you neck size only. I see nothing the 7wsm offers over the 7rm.
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Old May 13, 2009, 05:02 PM   #60
LordofWar
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Wht edge would a 7mm WSM have over a 7mm Rem Mag?
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Old May 13, 2009, 08:50 PM   #61
5whiskey
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Quote:
Unless maybe if I see a coyote....
That's what I was getting at. The OP lives in Pakistan. We don't know what nature of "coyotes" he may be going up against. That's why I think we shouldn't judge him for asking a question.
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Old May 14, 2009, 10:27 AM   #62
HiBC
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About what may be different in Pakistan..

I did mention that in my first reply on this thread.I understand life is different in other places.

In what I have written,I have referenced what is right for me,without saying what other folks should do.

I can make a case for self restraint ,shooting at game at long range,in terms of education rather than condemnation.

I am taking the OP at face value when he describes the target as a medium game animal.To speculate further would require pondering about who might be in harm's way.
I also take at face value the statement that the fun begins at ranges over 600.Yes,the real challenges of the art of the rifle are out at those ranges.

But,for myself,it is not necessary that the long range target be a living thing that must suffer my errors.Rocks,steel that clanges,will tell me if I shot well,or not.I do not need to see the creature with a destroyed leg in agony for fun.That is what is true for me.You may find your own truth,your own way. No heartburn.
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Old May 14, 2009, 11:33 AM   #63
GeauxTide
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The edge of the 7WSM over the 7mmRem is rifle weight with the attendant increase in noise and recoil. If you think Rem ammo is high, WSM will be higher. The two inch decrease in barrel length will also cost you 140fps.
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Old May 15, 2009, 12:52 PM   #64
4406v
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The 7mm because that's what I've shot for 20 years and I know my gun.

I personally wouldn't take the 600 yd shot ,for me the hunt is just beginning when the animal is that far away.
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Old May 15, 2009, 10:25 PM   #65
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The thing I would be looking at given your geographic situation is the availability of ammo and the price thereof. Also, look at your funds. The 7mm Mag is an amazing round, but it ain't exactly cheap to shoot. You'll also need plenty of wide open space to practice with it, as the round is quite loud. But given that you are in Pakistan, there should be plenty of desert available for that. (And I'm jealous of you for that...)

Although the 7mm Mag will have a flatter trajectory, the .308 is capable of what you are describing. It all comes down to knowing your gun and the round you are shooting. Plus, you can probably find military surplus .308 for practicing.

I will say this about the 7mm Rem Mag, though: Make sure you have a platform capable of handling it. A good, heavy wooden stock - or bull barrel if you have a synthetic stock - is a must (if you can't really practice with it...). I have a Ruger M77 MkII with a regular stainless barrel and synthetic stock, and it kicks like a mule. I haven't had the chance to practice with it since it's too loud to shoot extensively on the hunting club (homes nearby) and most indoor ranges won't allow it. Besides, at $2.50 a round, it isn't something I can go and put thousands of rounds through.
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Old May 18, 2009, 06:49 PM   #66
James R. Burke
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Just the way the question was asked about 600 yards it would be the 7mm Mag for the obvious reasons. In general I like the .308 better, but for the all around rifle I think the .30-06 is hard to beat in general terms. There are better calibers, and I am sure not everyone would aggree.
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Old May 27, 2009, 04:51 PM   #67
LordofWar
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Ammo availability for almost all hunting rounds to include 7mm RM, .279 Win & 30-06 Sprgf. is scare but some dealer do import them on & off. What we usally do is buy as much as we can whenever they are available. They are painfully expensive as compared to the US though $10.625 per bullet was my recent purchase but again shooting is an expensive hobby.
US is a heaven for gun enthusiasts. I really envy my friends in the US when they buy a Glock for $500 bucks which I buy in Pakistan for in excess of $4200 USD. :/

Pakistan is an agrarian economy and is an agriculture intensive country. The only desert that we have is in the far South eastern part of the country which is somewhat a small patch and has become more of a cultural heritage for both India & Pakistan.

I go to our local range in Karachi, Pakistan which has a 300 mtr range with state of the art equipment and electronic sensor targets with an LCD at every station point out your hits and calculating groups.

Practicing in any open area is strictly NOT allowed in Pakistan. For beyond 300mtrs I have a range at my farmhouse

I have a Santa Barbara in .308 and I'm not very fond of it. I usually hunt with & practice with my Blaser R93s.
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Old May 27, 2009, 05:01 PM   #68
LordofWar
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HiBC,

Trust me and take this at face value, the only thing different in Pakistan is expensive firearms & ammo.

If not for the Post Cold War produced pain in the rear foriegn fanatics & super power's scape goats, life's GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD.

Again I would thank you for taking me and my thread at face value. The biggest game animal in Pakistan is the Ibex & Markhor where the largest animal is hardly at par with the Whitetail Deer in size so all we have in our part of the world is MEDIUM GAME.

A true marksman is determined by his ability to shoot at targets beyond 500 yards which is when the fun begins. Use aperture sights to add toppings but for hunting we do need a scope which is when things become easier.

Well the 7mm RM does have all the power packed for a humane and clean kill at 600 yards if/when in the right hands.

Moreover, you dont do stupid things when you're paying an offical hunting license fee of $35,000 USD for a single animal.
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Old May 27, 2009, 06:00 PM   #69
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7mm mag vs .308

Lord of War, Just wondering if reloading equipment is available in your part of the world it could help reduce costs if available there.
If reloading was an option a wildcat cartridge I would consider looking at for 600 yard shots is the 7mm Shooting Times Westerner. In fact that is going to be my next project rifle. That cartridge has the legs on both the 308 and the 7mm Rem Magnum.
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Old May 27, 2009, 07:22 PM   #70
ZeroJunk
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Quote:
offical hunting license fee of $35,000 USD for a single animal.

Wow.
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Old May 28, 2009, 02:26 AM   #71
HiBC
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LordofWar,about 5 whiskey....

Thank you for your compliments.

I do not know you,I do not know 5whiskey.

And,all of us are somewhere between naive and cynical.The number of times we have been betrayed has something to do with that.

I freely admit I am quite ignorant about life in Pakistan.I only have the propaganda our media serves.

Please appreciate,while Pakistan is home for you,I have the impression,as an American,it may be a potentially dangerous place for me.

Such is the world,today.

I am happy to respect you as another shooter,and respect your questions.

In my opinion,it may not be correct to say 5whiskey is a bigot for anything he wrote.

Two of my brothers have served as US Army Special Forces.One was a medic in Vietnam,the other was an A-Team commander befor he moved up in the SOCOM organization.Either of my brothers could have been in a far away place that might be unsettled at times.

That I gave you my best information indicates I treated you with respect,but I will confess I wonder if I do the right thing sometimes.With no direspect to you,or to Pakistan,I can find my own fear that someone who reads of the fine art of rifle shooting at long range.....might find a brother or a friend and call him " medium game"

It does not imply any disrespect to you as a shooter or a hunter or individual if sometimes I myself must wonder how the knowledge I share might be used.

Now,as I said,I have chosen to take you at face value.I choose to continue.

But,I think maybe 5whiskey is OK
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