The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 28, 2009, 12:50 AM   #1
cloud8a
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 341
CVA Mountain or Frontier Mystery

I just purchased a CVA that I believe is a Hawken Mountain or Frontier. It says: Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc Black Powder only .50 Cal 0002227. It does not say USA or Spain. It does not have a patch box on the butt. It's ram rod extends a little further than the end of the barrel. I have no clue as to how old it is. I talked to Deer Creek and they could not say either.

The wood is very light almost yellow. The barrel looks possibly nickel i am not sure. I would not say the barrel is unfinished.

I just have not seen any others online with this coloring or marks.

I got it at a pawn shop for $90 and they knew nothing of its history.

Let me know if you guys can tell me more about it.

Last edited by cloud8a; April 28, 2009 at 09:19 AM.
cloud8a is offline  
Old April 28, 2009, 01:08 AM   #2
FrontierGander
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 30, 2009
Location: Boncarbo,Colorado
Posts: 372
32" barrel and 2 wedge pins? If so, its the mountain rifle, more than likely in kit form. Great price too if thats what you got.
FrontierGander is offline  
Old April 28, 2009, 10:04 PM   #3
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
Not having a patchbox sounds more like a Frontier to me.

See Frontier Gander's Hawken picture to compare:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=353432

The Frontier Carbine has a 24 inch barrel and a single trigger while the Frontier Rifle has a 28 inch barrel and a double trigger, and neither has a patchbox. Both have an adjustable rear sight which I can't say that the Mountain rifle would have.
The same smaller trigger guard are on both Frontiers which don't have the Hawken's finger hook.
This Frontier Carbine does have a lighter "honey" brown finish compared to my Frontier Rifle.



The Traditions nickeled barrels have a matte silver finish as in the picture that even coats the inside of the bore. It's slick but has a slightly grainy look to it. And the lock plate, hammer & drum are also nickeled.
Is this similar to the finish on your barrel and/or lock?
I believe that CVA also offered Frontier kits.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1050667a33%.JPG (51.6 KB, 1130 views)

Last edited by arcticap; April 28, 2009 at 11:24 PM.
arcticap is offline  
Old April 28, 2009, 11:25 PM   #4
Beaverman
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 26, 2009
Location: PNW Wa State
Posts: 7
Yea what FG says, with that low serial number and it NOT saying spain, its probably an early CVA that were made in the states before they bought out Jukar, I believe the early ones used Douglas barrels, which were excellent for their time, sounds like you have a keeper there, with reading that cva lawsuit siye, seems like all the suits are with inlines, hmmmmmm go figure!
__________________
CHARTER MEMBER TRADITIONAL MUZZLELOADING ASSOCIATION
WSMA
NRA INSTRUCTOR
Beaverman is offline  
Old April 29, 2009, 12:46 AM   #5
cloud8a
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 341
Yea I read that site about CVA's being dangerous but they were early inline models. Mine has double triggers, so maybe it is the frontier rifle and not the carbine. I cannot tell about the barrel to compare with the picture. I had an unfinished old Markwell Arms Kentucky kit. The barrel was unfinished and it did not look like the barrel on this Hawken. It was silver and fiberous, the Hawken is smooth.

It does though have the exact design on the hammer plate.

I will post pics as soon as I can
cloud8a is offline  
Old April 29, 2009, 01:04 AM   #6
cloud8a
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 341
I cannot wait to show you guys the pics of this. I have searched long and hard for pics on the web to match it and have not found any. This makes me pretty sure it was a kit.
Honestly I was shopping pawn shops for a weed eater/edger and saw this Hawken in the rifle case from across the room. Its colors stood out. I was about a week away from purchasing a Cabelas Hawken for over $300 when I came across this. It looked solid and they were asking $90. I figured if it goes bad Im out 90 instead of 300 and more the wiser.
cloud8a is offline  
Old April 29, 2009, 01:53 AM   #7
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
Click the image link twice to see a CVA Frontier .50 Smooth Rifle.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1050671a60%.JPG (227.4 KB, 224 views)

Last edited by arcticap; April 29, 2009 at 02:04 AM.
arcticap is offline  
Old May 19, 2009, 11:15 AM   #8
cloud8a
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 341
Got Pics of the CVA

Well here it is. I did not do too hot of a job on the pics. I know the barrel is not unfinished I believe it is nickel. It looks as though the previous owner did not clean it and there is some rust and possible pitting inside. Can anyone tell me about this gun? look at my first OP and you will see what marking it has.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 051909104058.jpg (234.9 KB, 306 views)
File Type: jpg 051909103857_01.jpg (101.9 KB, 264 views)
File Type: jpg 051909103823_01.jpg (103.9 KB, 248 views)
cloud8a is offline  
Old May 19, 2009, 11:43 AM   #9
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,856
Looks like arcticap nailed it.
Hawg is offline  
Old May 19, 2009, 12:18 PM   #10
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
Thanks for the follow up.
They made many of these rifles over the years and it just has a different set of sights.
Mine has a bead front with a w. & e. adjustable rear while yours has a blade front with a rear sliding elevator.
If the barrel is nickeled, then I'll bet that it's one of the earliest nickeled barrels produced. It does look smoother and shinier than the newer nickeled barrels, and the exterior of the barrel has held up well.
Does the inside of the barrel look like it's nickeled too?
I hope that you can save it with some elbow grease. After all of the rust is scaled off using a bronze bore brush, you might try to lap the bore with valve grinding compound as necessary. It's available at any auto parts store.
arcticap is offline  
Old May 20, 2009, 12:04 AM   #11
cloud8a
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 341
I would like to know how old it is? Is it from the 70's 80's or 90's? Is this a Douglas barrel? How would I know? Is this good for 90 bucks? I have yet to see a nickel barreled hawken.
cloud8a is offline  
Old May 20, 2009, 01:48 AM   #12
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
My guess is that it's not much more than about 20 years old.
Anything is possible regarding the origin of the barrel, especially if there is no clear indication where it was made.
However the rest of the rifle sure looks like it was made in Spain though.
One way to find out is to take the barrel off and to examine it thoroughly.
I would think that a Douglas barrel would have a nipple with American threading and not a standard CVA nipple with metric threading which is 6X1mm.
Look to see if the hooked breech is the same as on the Spanish CVA rifles, and if the rifling is any deeper.
About the nickeling, does the barrel lettering look like it was stamped before or after any nickel plating was applied? Do the letters look like they were filled in with the nickel plating at all?
Could the barrel just be highly polished steel?
Sometimes an owner or builder will have things like nickel plating done to a barrel, especially of it was a kit gun. If the nickeling was done at the factory, it should coat the inside of the barrel too. But if there was nickel inside of the barrel, then maybe it wouldn't be so rusty.
Considering that the bore is rusty, I don't think that the rifle is worth any more than what you paid for it. And if you can't fix up the barrel enough to get it to shoot very well, then you got what you paid for, i.e. - a lock, a stock and a barrel that needs some work, possibly needing to be either rebored or replaced.
Can you take some more pictures of the barrel, including some close ups of the nipple, lettering, hooked breech, crown etc...?

Last edited by arcticap; May 20, 2009 at 12:09 PM.
arcticap is offline  
Old May 20, 2009, 02:03 AM   #13
cloud8a
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 341
Pic of tthe rear sight

here is a pic of the rear sight. not the same as other frontiers. maybe that would indicate age. Even if it around twenty years old i am a little surprised that one would take care of the outside so well and neglect the inside.

0002227 is the serial number. does that mean it was 2227 of its kind?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 052009014056.jpg (234.7 KB, 175 views)
cloud8a is offline  
Old May 20, 2009, 03:23 AM   #14
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
I think that's the way that serial numbers often used to work.
Maybe it was displayed as a wall hanger for a long time.
arcticap is offline  
Old May 20, 2009, 06:51 AM   #15
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,856
The rear sight is most likely aftermarket. If the outside surface of the barrel is showing rust it's not nickel unless it's showing obvious flaking. Clean the bore out real good and try shooting it. If it shoots well then it was worth the money. If it doesn't then chalk it up to experience.

I know CVA used Douglas barrels on the early mountain rifles which were 33 inches long but I'm not so sure they used them on the shorter barreled guns. An older kit gun would be likely to not have markings. I have an old CVA pistol that was a kit and it has no markings.
Hawg is offline  
Old May 21, 2009, 02:42 AM   #16
cloud8a
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 341
I will take some more pics of the nipple and more of the barrel. The barrel is 28 inches. I noticed my ramrod is different than arts ram rod.
I feel bad because I did not inspect the inside of the barrel better. When I was in the pawn shop I looked at the first inch of barrel that I could see with the available pawn shop light ( I bet this is a beginners mistake). It looked okay. Only when I got home and shined a flashlight down it I noticed the rusting.

On a positive I am a very determined cleaner and plan to put hours into cleaning this thing if needed.

I do not like the fact that the ramrod extends pat the barrel. but when i put it down it goes almost all the way unloaded. is there a fix for this, or should i even mess with it?
cloud8a is offline  
Old May 21, 2009, 02:50 AM   #17
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
Is that a cleaning jag on the end that can be unscrewed to remove?
The extra inch of ramrod doesn't matter since it doesn't interfere with firing it.
Some expensive guns are like that too, but most are not.
If you can't clean up the barrel, it can be re-rifled for about $100, or a new barrel can be fitted. That is if you can't find one used.
It can also be turned into a smooth rifle like mine.

Last edited by arcticap; May 21, 2009 at 02:56 AM.
arcticap is offline  
Old May 21, 2009, 03:05 AM   #18
cloud8a
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 341
does having it re-rifled cause the caliber size to have to increase? Might be a dumb question but this is my first BP rifle.

Actually if it comes down to making it a smooth I will be good with that because the whole reason I bought it was to hunt like the pioneers use to.

in these days if i cannot hit the game with what the pioneers used i do not need to be hitting the game.
cloud8a is offline  
Old May 21, 2009, 03:07 AM   #19
cloud8a
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 341
"Is that a cleaning jag on the end that can be unscrewed to remove?"

yes it can be unscrewed.
cloud8a is offline  
Old May 21, 2009, 03:52 AM   #20
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
Yes, there's freshening the rifling and re-boring it. Both ways enlarge the bore, but re-boring would make it into a new larger bore size, like .54 caliber.

Making it smooth would enlarge it too because it needs to get cleaned out and honed. But it could be less expensive to do. And it would need to be turn it into a caliber that's easy to find the right size round balls to buy unless you choose to buy a mold and cast your own.
A barrel expert would be able to tell you more after he removes the breech plug and has a look see.

Last edited by arcticap; May 21, 2009 at 03:59 AM.
arcticap is offline  
Old May 21, 2009, 09:27 AM   #21
Gbro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,056
Quote:
I do not like the fact that the ramrod extends pat the barrel. but when i put it down it goes almost all the way unloaded. is there a fix for this, or should i even mess with it?
If your ramrod is sticking that far out and almost all the way in unloaded seems wrong to me. There may be a missing rod tip in the hole or some other obstruction. Take the lock out and see where it bottoms as it should allow the rod to go all the way to the barrel tang screw. You might take out the forward trigger guard screw and see if that is interfering with the rod.

Quote:
here is a pic of the rear sight. not the same as other frontiers. maybe that would indicate age. .
That is a very nice looking rear sight. I think it is what is called a European design. That means it is loose in the dovetail and you would loosen the screw to make an adjustment and then set it. A very nice way to adjust the sight.

Quote:
Even if it around twenty years old i am a little surprised that one would take care of the outside so well and neglect the inside
All it would take is one shot out of the gun and not clean it and in time the barrel could be ruined. That is why so many people choose to use substitute powders instead of real black powder. The salts left behind after just one firing of B/P are as caustic as 10 shots in some instances. This sure is not intended to scare you away from using original black powder as that is all I use. We just have to clean the gun as soon as we finish shooting.
__________________
Gbro
CGVS
For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18
Gbro is offline  
Old May 21, 2009, 10:05 AM   #22
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,856
Quote:
We just have to clean the gun as soon as we finish shooting
That's not true. Given enough time bp residue will ruin a barrel but it won't happen overnight or even in a week. Pyrodex is supposed to be more corrosive than real bp but I've left guns uncleaned for over a week using it with no signs of rust or corrosion.

Quote:
If your ramrod is sticking that far out and almost all the way in unloaded seems wrong to me.
That's CVA for ya. I had a St. Louis Hawken that was like that only the jag on mine didn't come off. The other end was threaded for the rest of the attachments.

Last edited by Hawg; May 21, 2009 at 10:11 AM.
Hawg is offline  
Old May 21, 2009, 08:30 PM   #23
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
I've bought "new & unfired" rifles that were 20 to 30 years old that still had bp residue in the barrel from the test firing at the factory which they didn't clean out, and the barrels were not damaged by it being left in the barrels.
When cleaning such a rifle for the first time I do get a little nervous about whether the residue caused any rust and pitting or not. But so far, so good. The factories must not be using full house loads but only smaller test loads to function fire the new rifles.
arcticap is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13373 seconds with 10 queries