The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 23, 2009, 12:16 AM   #1
Kyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Posts: 897
training at night

So, I am a night person. Tonight I decided to train on presenting, reloading, and moving as I reload/dry fire.
I keep a p345 as my HD/SD weapon. I have been carrying with the safety on and one in the pipe. Well, my holster covers the trigger completely, so I am thinking of carrying with the safety off and one in the pipe with the hammer down. The safety lever is safe in the down position and ready in the up position, and it is on both sides, but still I don't like it, I feel like it defeats the purpose of carrying.
Part of my dry firing, I was trying to figure out whether it would be better to cock it as I draw(which isn't hard with the thumb as I pull up) or if I should just focus on presenting and take the first shot as double action. Any experienced views? My DA pull is like 22 pounds my SA is 3. The trigger is a little long, but whatever a pull is a pull.
I am using a Cuda holster from simplyrugged.com with inside out straps to carry IWB.
Which should I focus on?
Kyo is offline  
Old April 23, 2009, 12:26 AM   #2
CT-Shooter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Location: CT
Posts: 8
Definitely go with the double action first pull. Trying to cock the hammer prior to the first shot is probably going to prove to be impossible under the stress of a gunfight.
CT-Shooter is offline  
Old April 23, 2009, 08:41 AM   #3
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,566
Kyo, . . . my wife has a similar weapon, . . . a P85, . . . and I believe both of them were originally designed for the DA first shot with the rest being SA. Not owning one like yours, . . . I am not certain, . . . but the one I shot a few years back, . . . if I remember correctly, . . . did not have a safety, . . . it had a de-cocker like my wife's P85.

That is why the hammer is really not as accessible as say a 1911, . . .

And that is why if I carried your weapon, . . . it would definitely be one in the pipe and practice that long trigger pull for the first shot.

An armed altercation is a very high emotional moment, . . . adrenalin is popping, . . . your pulse and blood pressure are peaking, . . . not the time to stop and have to do a "do over" because your thumb could not find the hammer, . . . etc.

If you truly want the SA first shot, . . . in a .45 ACP platform, . . . you need to have a 1911.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old April 23, 2009, 11:06 AM   #4
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Definitely go with the double action first pull. Trying to cock the hammer prior to the first shot is probably going to prove to be impossible under the stress of a gunfight.
Need to agree with the first sentence, disagree with the second. Of the two options, learning to use the DA for the first shot is the preferred option. However, it is quite possible to cock the hammer for gunfighting purposes, although it is more subject to problems.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old April 23, 2009, 07:41 PM   #5
Chindo18Z
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 1999
Posts: 493
Quote:
Need to agree with the first sentence, disagree with the second. Of the two options, learning to use the DA for the first shot is the preferred option. However, it is quite possible to cock the hammer for gunfighting purposes, although it is more subject to problems.
Concur. Pick one method and then practice the hell out of it. The DA first shot method will be easier and smoother to use (initially), but require more practice to be accurate.

The thumb cock mode (to SA first shot) will be slower and require more practice to deliver a fumble free first shot...but will potentially deliver a more accurate shot with less practice.

As to whether your Ruger is safe to carry hammer down & safety off, I'll admit to little experience with current Ruger semi-autos (and defer to owner opinions).
__________________
Figure The Odds...
Chindo18Z is offline  
Old April 23, 2009, 08:47 PM   #6
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,320
At Ray Chapman's school those that used DA/SA did learn to cock the weapon with their off thumb quickly (and Ray used a 92 Beretta with a Bar-Sto barrel to demonstrate) and we did an awful lot of shooting for a week (as well as two nights.)

Yes you can cock it under stress, but most of the time it's unnecessary as the ranges are close.

May I also suggest going to an indoor range during their off hours and have them turn their lights on low. I've done that many times. Good training.
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old April 24, 2009, 10:57 AM   #7
Kyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Posts: 897
Yea, so I am practicing with DA. I put up a target in my room with blinds to hold it up, so I can practice 1/1 training. Moving when I present, as I shoot, as I reload. Yelling STOP, then in my living room I have 3 targets held up by blinds, so I can do the same except put 2 in each, tac reload, 2 more in each, tac reload again, empty the mag. All while moving back/sideways. I need to practice kneeling and weak handed fire more.
Kyo is offline  
Old April 24, 2009, 12:35 PM   #8
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Save the time and effort of the tac reloads. Outside of games and administrative issues, the tactical reload is pretty much a waste of your training resources.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old April 24, 2009, 07:20 PM   #9
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,320
Quote:
Yea, so I am practicing with DA. I put up a target in my room with blinds to hold it up, so I can practice 1/1 training. Moving when I present, as I shoot, as I reload. Yelling STOP, then in my living room I have 3 targets held up by blinds, so I can do the same except put 2 in each, tac reload, 2 more in each, tac reload again, empty the mag. All while moving back/sideways. I need to practice kneeling and weak handed fire more.
Keep practicing Kyo. It sounds good and by firing only a few shots at a time your ammo will last longer. You can actually do the tac reloads without even a loaded weapon. Just point it in a safe direction after checking to make sure it is unloaded, and then use empty mags (I have a blue Dillion weighted one and a few red painted old mags just for that.)

Vary your practice and over time come back to where you were. You wil find one day you can do tac reloads, speed reloads, weak handed draws, etc.. all while moving up and down stairs. It's mearly a matter of coordination. And that takes practice (and it's fun to.)
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old April 24, 2009, 11:39 PM   #10
Kyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Posts: 897
David, I will respectfully disagree with you. At the moment I carry 1 extra mag and the one in the gun. If I ever get into a fight(God forbid!!!!) and I let off a few rounds, I will want to go back to my 9 rounds like I did at the start(8 in mag+1 in chamber)
From everything I have ever heard, you don't remember how many rounds you shoot when your braindead in a fight. I trust that is true, and will prepare for such.
I got my 4th mag today. Woot, will carry 3 extra now, maybe 2 depending on what I feel like
Oh yea, I am dry firing the whole time, not actually rounds...snap caps and empty mags just like suggested.
Kyo is offline  
Old April 25, 2009, 11:23 AM   #11
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
David, I will respectfully disagree with you.
One can disagree all they wish, but it doesn't change the facts. The tac reload has never been found to have made a difference in the outcome of a non-military fight, does nothing that can't be done as well or better with another load, presents a set of problems that take an inordinate amount of training time to overcome, and is the least reliable way to reload a handgun. If one wants to learn them, that is fine, but they just don't serve much purpose outside of the range. For a good article on the issue by someone else, try http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_t...reload_061604/

Last edited by David Armstrong; April 25, 2009 at 11:28 AM.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old April 25, 2009, 01:45 PM   #12
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,320
Kyo,

Keep in mind just because any 'study' has never found an incident where a tac reload, or any particularly technique, as never made a difference does not mean it ever has made a difference nor if it's a tactically sound idea.

Also the way the tac reload is done by IDPA is, to me awkward.

Here is the way I do it.
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."

Last edited by Deaf Smith; October 5, 2012 at 09:59 PM.
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old April 25, 2009, 01:47 PM   #13
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,320
and the rest of the sequence.
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."

Last edited by Deaf Smith; August 6, 2012 at 06:13 PM.
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old April 25, 2009, 01:56 PM   #14
Chindo18Z
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 1999
Posts: 493
Some thoughts on tactical reload:

Anything that drops (or gets ripped) from my rifle/pistol magazine well or is dumped from my revolver cylinder...becomes the property of earth's gravity.

My only objective in a reload is to quickly & smoothly top off (speed reload). If the situation and time allow, I'll recover anything I've dropped. If not, so be it.

Old Magazine Out. New Magazine In. Readdress Threat As Needed.

I've undergone Tactical-Reload instruction over the years, and even tried it diligently for a short time. I quickly discarded the method (manipulating two magazines at once) as an interesting card trick for the range...and that's about all. I'm not coordinated enough to reliably do it under stress and not smart enough to understand why I'd even want to.



Some thoughts on night training:

Shining a flashlight seems intuitive; we've all used flashlights since childhood. Most of us know how to shoot a handgun. Thus, we think that it will be relatively simple to take care of business by whipping out the old SureFire and trusted blaster.

Most folks would be well served to put themselves into a pitch dark closet, bathroom, or wooded treeline and knock out enough pushups to get their heart rate and breathing up. Then attempt to (using an empty weapon) draw, aim, fire, manipulate a safety or decocker, practice a malfunction drill, reload, and reholster. Then repeat with a combat light. That (using a light) will solve some problems encountered in the first drill (total darkness), but present several more (which will become self-evident when practiced).

It's not enough to just stand in front of a mirror in a lit room, practice a few dry fires, flash your light a few times, and call it good. You need to stand in the dark and do the things you need to do...slowly at first...and by touch. When you get comfortable, add the tactical light to the mix.

You would never let your 16 year-old borrow your car on a Friday night if you knew they had never practiced any driving at night, but had only conducted driver's training during the day.

It's kinda the same with night firing and tactical lights. It's not actually rocket science, but it is not something you want to do for the first time under real conditions.
__________________
Figure The Odds...

Last edited by Chindo18Z; April 26, 2009 at 03:27 PM.
Chindo18Z is offline  
Old April 25, 2009, 03:45 PM   #15
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
My only objective in a reload is to quickly & smoothly top off (speed reload). If the situation and time allow, I'll recover anything I've dropped. If not, so be it.
Old Magazine Out. New Magazine In. Readdress Threat As Needed.
That is pretty much it. If your concern is to get the gun reloaded, use the speed rteload. If your concern is to save the unspent rounds, tehn take the mag out, save it, and put a new mag in. Trying to do both is a recipe for problems.
Quote:
I quickly discarded the method (manipulating two magazines at once) as an interesting card trick for the range...and that's about all.
Well said. It is great for games, not so good for real fights.

Quote:
Keep in mind just because any 'study' has never found an incident where a tac reload, or any particularly technique, as never made a difference does not mean it ever has made a difference nor if it's a tactically sound idea.
Given that several people have been diligently searching for anyone who can provide a single example of the tac load mattering, and that they have been doing so for years (including on several well-used 'net forums) I'd suggest the onus is on those who advocate it to provide some slight bit of proof as to its need or utility. Again, it is a great range/game technique, but not for real fights. It provides nothing that can't be done as well or better by the speed reload and the reload with retention.

Last edited by David Armstrong; April 25, 2009 at 03:50 PM.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old April 25, 2009, 06:04 PM   #16
Kyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Posts: 897
sorry for the confusion, maybe I explained it the wrong way. I am not ripping out mags and letting them hit the floor. I am reaching for one mag as I eject the other. letting the ejected one go into the hand with the full mag. slamming the new one in, putting the old one in the back pocket as I keep firing. My gun holds 8+1. If I do my 3 target drill I reload after 6 dry fires. If I do my single I reload after 8 dry fires, so there is still one in the chamber and I can go back to 9.
Is this a bad rhythm? Should I be dry firing all 9 and then reloading? Or is this a preference thing. My logic behind it was so I don't have to waste time dropping the slide stop to get the gun back into battery.
Kyo is offline  
Old April 25, 2009, 11:07 PM   #17
David Armstrong
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
sorry for the confusion, maybe I explained it the wrong way.
If you are ejecting the used mag into your hand while another mag is already in the hand, that is basically a tactical reload, and is probably the worst way to reload the handgun. You should spend most of your time on the speed reload, where you just dump the mag in the gun and put a new one in there. If you want the dropped mag, pick it up after the reload is done.
David Armstrong is offline  
Old April 26, 2009, 12:39 AM   #18
Kyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Posts: 897
Chindo that is really sound advice, I will try it out some time in the future
Kyo is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10766 seconds with 9 queries