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View Poll Results: Best for HD: Rifle/Carbine vs Shotgun vs Handgun
Rifle/Carbine 13 7.98%
Shotgun 54 33.13%
Handgun 26 15.95%
Combination of the above 69 42.33%
Use a phone and hope the police show up in time 1 0.61%
Voters: 163. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 16, 2009, 04:30 PM   #51
hogdogs
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Twellons, My 18 inch barrel with regular stock is FAR MORE mobile! It can be carried with my right hand in a few positions and all of which have my finger in a ready position. Don't get me wrong, it won't fit crossways in all hallways but I doubt that is a battle ready position as the bad person will be to front or rear and not alongside.
I have the ability to carry barrel up or down just like your PGO, I have the ability to shoot from a low hip or midsection position just like the PGO, but I am able to tuck the stock under my arm and clamp down for defensibility which you cannot, I can go to a full shoulder mount position which you cannot. I can fire mine while looking down the barrel for best accuracy which you cannot. And if I run out of shells or suffer the rare jam I have a double ended club which the PGO does not... Food for thought...
To quantify my opinion I have un-countable thousands of rounds with a PGO as well as the regular stock design and a few thousand with the AR shaped stock.
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Old April 16, 2009, 04:48 PM   #52
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Those are all very valid reasons Hotdogs , and Appreciate the listings of why you prefer the Stock. Perhaps some of those are good reasons for me to try and see how well I could do the same ( using my rifle ) to test and I may also prefer the stock.

I think many here forgot this was an opinion thread , and listing reasons why someone feels the way they do on their opinion may help others to form new opinions... the previous " YER DOIN IT WRONG" replies to my post were not very helpful. lol
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Old April 16, 2009, 04:48 PM   #53
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...more manueverable, and way, WAY more likely to miss.
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Old April 16, 2009, 04:57 PM   #54
Bartholomew Roberts
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Twellons, the reason I linked to those posts is because they had really good information in them if you take the time to read them and critically think about them. Even better if you follow some of the suggested links.

If all you intend to do is tabulate how many people had a certain opinion and decide that >X number of people sharing your opinion validates your opinion, then you are in for a very interesting life. Particularly since some of the more informative posts in those threads show facts that directly contradict many of those opinions and those facts are never rebutted.

ETA: As for the "yer doin it wrong" posts, look at what hogdogs typed in response to a single sentence of yours regarding a fairly simple issue. Now look at the more complex issues you touched on - most people don't have the inclination to write a 5k word essay on why they think your opinion is wrong supported by their reasoning on each issue. Thus the links to past discussions - which apparently a waste of time also.

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Old April 16, 2009, 06:27 PM   #55
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While I was at work , I was unable to read through all of the links you provided , but I did skim all of them and saw many views and arguments for both sides...

I guess my point was that popular opinions weather right or wrong , disagreed with or not , are just that.... opinions... Now perhaps I mistakenly saw your post as a denial of others opinions and stating your view and opinion as fast ...

The fact of the matter is that even the links you posted are still just " What I've read" information. And always something to take into consideration from the more experienced.
Instead of giving your personal reasons for your feelings simply linked off of OTHER peoples views opinions and reasons.... It's what you've read and studied and believed in . ( According to your response to me , although I'm sure tyou have more personal experience )

My opinions are not based strictly on X number of opinons > Y so therefore X must be true...

Although that plays a part in my views, I do in fact take both point of views and think about them and digest them and place them into my specific situation and make my own opinions and choices... ( The same goes for politics, food selection , cancer risks etc... ). Basically I don't believe everything I read on the net, in a book , or see on a movie ... but I take the various opinions and process them and accept those which I "feel" are true in my opinion and what is a "best case scenario" or me and my family. Is this always correct or the most knowledgeable ? No... Is it a true opinion based on my knowledge and experience ? Yes.


So perhaps it was a misunderstanding of what you were trying to get across , but the multitude of links trying to prove my views incorrect , did nothing more than come across to me as " Your ignorant and need to do more research" while at the same time displayed that MANY many other people share my view.


I can refer you back to the Milk and Vaccines argument . My GF can link me 25 sites and references to say they are terrible for you and dangerous and it's a massive lie that society believes.... I can also link just as many arguments that say Milk is good for you and Vaccines necessary ... So who's to say who is right and who is wrong ? Both reference studies of facts in given cases... It's a matter of opinion based on belief and other circumstances and scenarios that helped form those views.


Now , to say " I disagree with your opinion because...." Well now that's a healthy debate and something I look forward to in order to expand my view and understanding. " You're spreading myths and falsehoods as you can see here..." Is nothing more than touting your opinion as fact... based on other peoples opinions and views.

Hotdogs method of listing his personal experiences and views of WHY he has his opinion was in no way negative and was simple a good method of listing why he, as a person, disagrees...


So again , perhaps a misunderstanding .... but back to the subject at hand , A shotgun , short barrel ( perhaps with PGO or stock ) and Birdshot is my current opinion in answer to the question. I'm not really sure how so many of these replies came back to my single post.... I'm feeling the love though
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Old April 16, 2009, 06:51 PM   #56
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So while I don't claim, to know all of the "facts" that you guys site to counter the "myths" I listed... It would certainly apear that they are very very common "myths" and there is a reason they have so often been repeated....
Myths that are commonly repeated are still myths. You will find no quality shotgun instructor, AFAIK, that will subscribe to any of those myths.
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Old April 16, 2009, 07:04 PM   #57
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No can of worms for me.

I prefer them all.

Each has good points and bad.

I keep the handgun the most cause I carry it daily. But I'd be quite happy with my M1 Carbine/AR/AK or Mossburg 590 any day. There is no conflict to me between them.
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Old April 16, 2009, 07:06 PM   #58
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Quality of instructor is objectionable. One of the links about Bird shot mentioned someone who had an instructor teach them to use Bird Shot for home defense....


Again... It's all objectionable to what one is taught and by whom. Back to the Milk argument.... Herbal Doctors teach on thing ( My GF is studying to be a natural Herbalistic Doctor) ... Modern Medicine Doctors teach another... Both offer studies to show why the other is a myth and wrong.... Who you YOU believe and rely on ?

Herbal Docs that claim against Milk and Vaccines and medicines of most kinds ?

Or Medicinal docs that have guided you your entire life ?

Both offer compelling arguments based on studies and viewpoints.

Anti's offer studies and view points , us Pros offer studies and viewpoints... I Offer "my" view based on my beliefs and views of both sides of the arguments ... and I am PRO.

I don't claim that my view if fact or best for everyone. Based on my views, education, experience thus far and situation ... They will work best for me until my view changes based on my own understanding and belief through education and open minded acceptance of other's views. .
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Old April 16, 2009, 08:29 PM   #59
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This is my new HD weapon of choice...

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Old April 16, 2009, 09:14 PM   #60
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handgun preferred, backed up with a 20g mossberg 500.
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Old April 17, 2009, 12:46 AM   #61
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Quality of instructor is objectionable.
Not really. The shotgun is one of the few weapons out there where there is such a consensus on some of these issues that an instructor that promulgates the myths almost by definition does not know what he is talking about.
Quote:
One of the links about Bird shot mentioned someone who had an instructor teach them to use Bird Shot for home defense....
I've taught it also. But I do not teach it as a good choice. In fact, a really good instructor will teach you how to modify your birdshot shell to make it more effective.
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Who you YOU believe and rely on ?
With all due respect to your GF, natural Herbalistic Doctors usually have little or no actual training in sciece and medicine, so I know who I will rely on.
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Both offer compelling arguments based on studies and viewpoints.
But not all studies are of the same rigor and quality. No matter how compelling the argument, the universe was not created 4000 years ago, even though there are those who present that viewpoint and will show you studies to support it.
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Old April 17, 2009, 01:59 AM   #62
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i went with the shotgun. although i would have my XD close by, but that might change when i get my AR and work it out.
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Old April 17, 2009, 02:10 AM   #63
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EDIT: BTW I am curious to hear the person who voted for "Grab the phone and hope the police show up in time" defend their choice LMAO.
GSUeagle1029,

That was my vote.

Read my entire post. I don't need to go looking for trouble, as it has a way of finding me. Just because I will call the Police does not mean that I won't use a gun to defend myself or my family either.

It's really no fun being under investigation following a "Use of Force", BTDT. The gun, for me, and any sane rational person is an "option of last resort". If you think you will be given the key to the city if you "smoke a badguy" you are delusional at best, and living in a fantasy world.

I have used a gun three times in my life, twice a handgun and once a shotgun. My attitude is, if someone else can be the "cannon fodder" great. If not, and I have no other choice, I will do what I have to do. I will survive, period. I may not, but I don't tell myself that. I come to the dance with the attitude that I am going to win the encounter. If I don't have to have the encounter, so much the better.

I don't live in a fantasy world. For me, out to 100 Yards the shotgun will work, but I don't realistically see a 100 Yard shot as being defensible in court. Also, using your hunting rifle is fine, but by God Muffy, good people don't use those evil "assault weapons". That's what the yuppie on the jury would say, and the most dangerous situation he's ever faced is not having his Starbuck's coffee one morning.

Bear in mind, I use an M4 at work, in certain situations, as well as a shotgun and handgun, but that's not relevant to this thread. The question was about "Home Defense". I may, or may not, be able to justify a 100 Yard shot at work. I don't think any of us could justify a shot longer than our longest hallway or room in a home defense scenario.

I don't know about you, but my home is small enough that a handgun works just fine, but I prefer the stopping power of the shotgun with appropriate loads. I actually prefer that I not be placed in the situation, hence the call to the Police. They may, or may not get there in time. If they don't, I'm prepared to defend myself and my loved ones.

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Old April 17, 2009, 06:09 AM   #64
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My PERSONAL OPTION for home defense is a carbine variant rifle, but I still think that your pistol should be your primary means of defense in your home.

1) Deploy handgun and engage threat
2) Under your own cover fire or if opportunity presents itself, use your handgun to maneuver yourself to wherever your bigger guns, more ammo, vest(s), phone(s), etc are located
3) Once properly armed or if opportunity does not present itself, either fight or retreat
4) If you decide to continue to fight, follow steps in my signature line

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Old April 17, 2009, 07:37 AM   #65
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David .... No disrespect taken ... as I pretty much call her the crazy Milk lady as I sip on my tall glass of 2% Milk... Although she is very educated , it's more of a belief system than a science per say. I just don't personally believe alot of it. lol

And I agree with the differences in studies and quality of studies and how often certain studies are aimed at trying to change a point of view... That's kind of what I Was getting at. Seeing the studies of both , and making a personal decision is needed. Not just following a study or two that's been seen.

I'm just saying that this was not a " this is gospel best solution". This was my personal opinion of my best scenario. Which is still open for a change of mind, but I believe you will often find many people with differing opinions as it applies to them.

If you prefer to hear my reasonings here it is ....


I live in a home with VERY thin walls ( thinner than Drywall ).... Extremely thin walls , My bedroom is on the opposite end of my children's... Any attacker, burglar etc , that enters the home will be between me and my kids... Any shots I have will be very carefully angled to a point that any overshot will NOT hit a wall ( My son sleeps in the room adjacent to the Living room and front door entry) My daughter in a room at the end of a hallway leading off from the front door. ANY overshot at all poses a very high risk in these situations. The only advantage I feel with a pistol is that I can move to get better angles easier.... Hence , I have personal reasons for my choices. I feel less comfortable with the Pistol and a miss , but more comfortable that I can get better angles and safer shots. ( Maneuverability )

This particular link backs my view ... sort of. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

While not completely optimal , it is accepted as a potentially safer option in some situations. I prefer to not kill anyone if I Can avoid it , if it takes 3 shots of bird to take him down , well that's 3 shots I'll take versus the one with higher risks to my kids. 4" penetration to a midsection may not kill the guy but it's going to hurt like hell and make him pause (I would hope) while allowing me time for a follow-up shot if needed.

Interesting information though and perhaps I will spend my work day doing more research.

Last edited by Enoy21; April 17, 2009 at 08:21 AM.
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Old April 17, 2009, 09:08 AM   #66
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I guess my point was that popular opinions weather right or wrong , disagreed with or not , are just that.... opinions... Now perhaps I mistakenly saw your post as a denial of others opinions and stating your view and opinion as fast ...
"Birdshot is a bad choice for self-defense" is an opinion. "#6 birdshot penetrates only X" in unclothed ballistic gel" is a fact, not an opinion. The location of human organs inside the body - fact. Radiographs showing birdshot injuries and penetration in human bodies - fact. The way the human body works and what has to be done physiologically to stop it - again, fact. The posts I gave you were chock full of good facts mixed in with opinion - that is why I am a little stunned to hear you discount the links as "just opinions."

Let me give you an example from those threads (I'll summarize to save time instead of giving actual quotes).

Post #1: "Somebody who gets shot in the face or neck with birdshot from household distances WILL stop what they are doing. I GUARANTEE it."

Post #2: List of links to news stories where people were shot in the face/neck with birdshot from household distances and did not stop what they are doing - including one case where the bad guy killed his victim after losing one eye to a faceful of birdshot and then drove 2 hours to a hospital and another case where a 12yr old girl was hit in the head with birdshot from less than 5yds and survived by fleeing her attacker.

Now, one of those posts is purely opinion - and the other one is purely fact; both make express or implied arguments about the suitability of birdshot though. Which one do you think deserves more weight when you evaluate them?

Quote:
Instead of giving your personal reasons for your feelings simply linked off of OTHER peoples views opinions and reasons.... It's what you've read and studied and believed in . ( According to your response to me , although I'm sure tyou have more personal experience )
No, I linked to those opinions because I believed that it wasn't worth my personal time to write a point by point rebuttal based on my personal experience of each statement of yours I believed to be a fallacy. I already knew that TFL had covered these subjects many times before (since I had pariticpated in previous discussions), so I linked to those discussions to save time.

You see a lot of times, I can tell somebody something that I have learned through personal experience; but those people, often having different or even no experience, tend to discount those stories. Over time, I've just stopped taking the time to respond or keeping my responses brief. You've been the exception to this for the most part - and frankly, an exception I regret making about now; but having started a futile attempt to share that experience, I feel a need to finish it.

Quote:
So perhaps it was a misunderstanding of what you were trying to get across , but the multitude of links trying to prove my views incorrect , did nothing more than come across to me as " Your ignorant and need to do more research" while at the same time displayed that MANY many other people share my view.
If you have a median level of knowledge, then approximately 3 billion people are more ignorant than you are. That is MANY people who may share or discount your opinion on any given subject; but it doesn't make them any less ignorant. The trick is to develop a reliable process to figure out whether you are talking to the upper half or the lower half of that population. Personally, I've found that my own personal ego and pride have been the biggest impediments to my learning more. That is the nice thing about TFL, since it has been around for over a decade now and I have been here since 2000, you can find lots of examples in my older posts of me proudly sharing my ignorance as more experienced members futilely attempt to explain their reasoning (and P.S. that would be "You're ignorant and need to do more research" - "your" is possessive, "you're" is the contraction of "You are")

Quote:
You're spreading myths and falsehoods as you can see here..." Is nothing more than touting your opinion as fact... based on other peoples opinions and views.
twellons, the most disturbing theme I find in your repeated statements is that all of these are simply opinions. They aren't. There was plenty of factual information in there if you take the time to read it. If you don't take the time to separate opinion from fact, then all the reading in the world isn't going to advance your knowledge much.

Quote:
Hotdogs method of listing his personal experiences and views of WHY he has his opinion was in no way negative and was simple a good method of listing why he, as a person, disagrees...
And kudos to Hotdogs for taking the time to do that... but I don't want to take that time. If I did that every time I saw a misleading statement on the Internet, it would consume my entire life and lead to very little personal satisfaction. Your post alone would have wasted half a day. Furthermore, your very response to my posts reinforces my belief that it is better to let ignorant people wallow in their ignorance rather than spend a lot of my time gently correcting them in a way that both soothes their wounded pride and educates them. I don't say that to be mean or disrespectful to you; but rather to frankly describe why I don't take more time to give a better reply.

Quote:
So again , perhaps a misunderstanding .... but back to the subject at hand , A shotgun , short barrel ( perhaps with PGO or stock ) and Birdshot is my current opinion in answer to the question.
You know, Jeff Cooper famously said (and again I summarize to save time) that possession of a firearm doesn't make you qualified to use it any more than possession of a piano makes you a concert pianist. Much more important than anybody's opinion here is that you get out and train and use your firearms. Go hunt some 100-200lb mammals with shotgun loaded with birdshot. If you do this, you will soon be able to sort through those various opinions a lot better and you won't need my input whether it is fact or opinion. You'll know through your own experience. You'll also better understand whether despite that a PGO meets whatever unique needs you might have.

There is a saying: "Wise people learn from the experience of others. Smart people learn through their own experiences. Monkeys learn through repetition."

The thing with firearms is that unless you get out there and shoot them, you won't even be able to learn much from the experience of others since you can't sort the experienced shooters from the 15yr old Counterstrike/Airsoft crowd.

Quote:
I'm not really sure how so many of these replies came back to my single post.... I'm feeling the love though
Hmmmm, have any of your other posts here drawn that kind of response? What do you think the difference is in this case?
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Old April 17, 2009, 09:37 AM   #67
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" While trying to keep this short because this is no longer on topic, but rather a disagreement about posts....


I have not refuted your reasons or statistics of Ballistics , penetration levels or the science of it ... I do not claim to have all of the knowledge or to even remotely believe that I know all there is to know... Again , this was an opinion based poll.... and one that I would be much more willing to open my views based on the presentation of a counter view. I was actually looking forward to see others opinions and WHY ( through ballistics tests, personal experience , etc ) they feel that way to help me to learn more. So perhaps it was the presentation of your post ... Which seems to show more Ego and elitism than I can imagine your older posts do.

Sharing the knowledge is one thing, I am here to learn from other peoples experiences... That's why I'm here reading so often and seeing other peoples experiences and opinions and reading up on the facts that lead them to that. This is ALSO why I don't claim ANYTHING I say here or in any subject is fact... I will link studies , and ballistic information , but without that first hand knowledge and seeing it for myself , It is just a semi educated view.

I have been mentioning repeatedly that my situation , and my selection is what drew me to my conclusions... As well as my limited experience and education. At no time did I ever say "Bird shot penetrates more than Buckshot in Balistics gels etc..." or "Bird shot will kill someone just as fast etc. "

As you can link articles to people living through the birdshot , I can find others where people have died from it.

I'm thinking perhaps you had not yet read my last post in this... Perhaps you have and want to continue down the vein of why your selection is better than mine... I'm choosing not to. ( I do wish they had a shotgun defensive course in my area, pretty sure the local range doesn't offer that one )

Based on that link in my previous post ... I have come to the idea and conclusion that perhaps 1-2 loads of Bird followed by a stronger load of Buck might be a better selection than just straight Bird for my specific situation.

But alas ... I prefer that we discontinue the arguing, and let the topic get back on track.


And as for the correction of "You're" over "your" I'm well aware of the difference and I swear I thought I fixed that before posting it. Perhaps that was another thread though. lol
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Old April 17, 2009, 10:53 AM   #68
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Wow. This thread went to crap.

Thanks for trying BR, but I think you are wasting your breath with Corky.

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Old April 17, 2009, 10:57 AM   #69
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Wow. This thread went to crap.
Sure did. I vote to close, but, that's just me.
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Old April 17, 2009, 11:02 AM   #70
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ANY overshot at all poses a very high risk in these situations.
If that is your primary concern, and I think it certainly can be a big concern, I would suggest you do a search for a recent thread on things to do that can "harden" your home environment. But I would also be concerned with the fact that birdshot is notorious for not stopping birds, much less people.
Quote:
This particular link backs my view ... sort of.
That link concludes "Do not expect birdshot to have any decisive effect."

Last edited by David Armstrong; April 17, 2009 at 11:13 AM.
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Old April 17, 2009, 12:01 PM   #71
Bartholomew Roberts
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Lethal force HD presents a dilemma. On the one hand, you have somebody in your home who presents an immediate threat of death or serious injury (otherwise we probably would not be using lethal force). In order to stop that threat physiologically you need to penetrate deeply enough to reach vital organs (i.e. stop blood from reaching the brain) or the central nervous system. If you don't do this, then your attacker is still physically capable of continuing the assault.

The problem is that any projectile that will do this reliably in a variety of scenarios will also sail through multiple interior walls with ease if you miss. I mean a sheet of drywall won't stop your fist - if it stops the round you are using, chances are good that round isn't very effective.

I think we would all agree that the attacker probably represents a greater threat, otherwise we wouldn't shoot at all. So now the question is how much are you willing to sacrifice not stopping the threat as fast as possible in order to limit the damage you can do if you miss?

My answer to that is I want at least 10" penetration in ballistic gel. That is 2" under the FBI minimum; but looking at my average human male torso cross section, organ placement, and the lack of laminated safety glass in my house, that should give me the penetration I need in most scenarios. At the same time, as long as I hit my target, I have no overpenetration concerns.

To bring this full circle, this is why I prefer longguns - better accuracy and generally speaking, better terminal performance. This is also why I dislike PGO shotguns with birdshot - I have traded accuracy and terminal performance both while simultaneously increasing the number of projectiles and the chance that some will miss entirely and hit things I didn't want to hit.

Of course, I also train a lot to make sure I can do my part of that demanding equation - including Force on Force classes with Simunitions and regular formal instruction. My solution might not work as well for someone without that training; but in watching novices shoot for accuracy under time pressure they almost always do best with longguns.
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Old April 17, 2009, 01:10 PM   #72
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The one by the bed

In my case a Mossberg 500. What am I gonna do with it while I cuff/search the bandit? Hit him with the back end if he gives me anymore trouble.
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Old April 17, 2009, 01:27 PM   #73
hogdogs
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Well I am worried about overpenetration killing a family member... For that I suggest a well placed COM shot to soak off much of the energy of the load!

Close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades... NOT SHOTGUNS!

As for cuffing the badguy.. If I chose to cuff him I would hold a gun barrel to his noodle bowl while Junior slaps the Smith and Wessons on him...
One wrong move and the mess momma has to sop up will increase by a bunch! Resisting is to still pose a threat, isn't it?

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Old April 17, 2009, 01:31 PM   #74
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Closed.

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