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Old March 29, 2009, 08:54 PM   #1
SteveRick
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Will U.S. Soldiers fire on American citizens?

I have a good question

Will U.S. Soldiers fire on American citizens if the country were to ever collapse? The government orders them to take control? I get worried when I can't find one box of 357 or 38 in California for over 3 weeks. People are scared.
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Old March 29, 2009, 09:00 PM   #2
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I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
Don't make yourself the enemy and you don't have anything to worry about.
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Old March 29, 2009, 09:06 PM   #3
SteveRick
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what I am saying is; What happens when the government becomes the enemy?
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Old March 29, 2009, 09:12 PM   #4
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In the event that TSHTF and all hell breaks loose you have to consider what kinds of revolutions happen. Take the former Soviet Union or example. That revolution ended in communism. The French revolution ended up having French citizens killing off lots of their own people. An American style revolution is also a bloody ordeal.

While we can all look back on the warning signs of what kind of revolution was to come in the country of your choice, we have to take into account that we have 20/20 hindsight.

For now you're fine, and until somebody starts sooting at you you'll seem like a nut if you spend your day worrying about the next revolution.
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Old March 29, 2009, 09:17 PM   #5
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The key element of the oath is that it is an oath to protect the Constitution. It is not an oath to protect the federal governement, follow orders of the president or anyone else if their actions are contrary to the Constitution.

Unsaid, though implied, it compels the swearer to defend against the federal government or the president if either become enemies of the Constitution through their actions.
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Old March 29, 2009, 09:19 PM   #6
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Will U.S. Soldiers fire on American citizens if the country were to ever collapse? The government orders them to take control?
Quote:
what I am saying is; What happens when the government becomes the enemy?
If the government is the enemy, then we are likely their enemy. You sort of answered your own question.
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Old March 29, 2009, 09:20 PM   #7
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Thank you Jekyll, chemgirlie, and scorpion_tyr, and Double Naught spy for clearing that up
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Old March 29, 2009, 09:24 PM   #8
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OK I'll put my tinfoil hat on for a minute and play along, If martial law is declared, there will probably be a thin line that both soldier and citizen alike will have to decide whether they will cross. The citizen will have to decide if he wants to subject himself to the will of the military...or not.

The soldier will have to make the same choice...

Quote:
I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
He will have to decide if those orders are legally and morally correct. I will guess that there will be some who will follow orders without question, others will not.

The better question is, if the country implodes, and the military are ordered to fire on citizens, what are YOU prepared to do.

*removes tinfoil hat*


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Old March 29, 2009, 09:28 PM   #9
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Unsaid, though implied, it compels the swearer to defend against the federal government or the president if either become enemies of the Constitution through their actions

I'm not gonna bet the farm on it !
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Old March 29, 2009, 10:05 PM   #10
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Some would turn their muzzles towards the government and some would turn their muzzles towards the citizens. I spent 22 years in the Marines and there was no question which way my muzzle would have pointed. I took an oath to the Constitution.

Something many people don't fully understand is that the military is only strong as the result of a firm chain of command based upon clear moral authority. Do something unconstitutional and the moral clarity dissolves, and with it, the moral authority of leadership. Faced with an uncertain situation lacking moral authority, orders and missions will be questioned. Now, recall that you are dealling with people with an above average sense of dedication and loyalty to the nation, the Constitution and its PEOPLE. It won't be long before an officer or 2 recognize their orders are illegal and unconstitutional. The chain of command begins to crumble once the first field grade or general officer refuses an illegal order. The first muzzle pointed backwards will cause a realization within the ranks that the battle is wrong, the enemy is elsewhere.

There may be a Boston Massacre or 2 but they will only accelerate questioning and analysis of the orders. The ranks will crumble and sides will be taken. The citizens will not face an organized military.

The military can be counted on to take 2 actions:
1) Protect strategic weapons and delivery systems FROM EVERYONE. No one will be able to approach any silo, sub or other nuclear capable asset. No questions will be asked and no allegiences will be tollerated except the Constitution.
2) Notify the world that any attempt to interfere with our internal squabble will be met with nuclear weapons. In the nuclear age, and the world stage as written today, our enemys would view our squable as an opportunity. I feel confident that ouside forces would be kept at bay by American military forces posturing with our nuclear weapons.
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Old March 29, 2009, 10:29 PM   #11
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Some certainly won't. Nor will they blockade cities and turn them into concentration camps.

It's encouraging on the one hand, that American soldiers would take an oath not to oppress the American people, and scary on the other that they feel the possibility is real enough that they must prepare themselves to disobey such orders by forming a group.

There have been scheduled military excercises, as of late, that are consistent with entering and searching peoples' homes.

Oath Keepers: Orders We Will Not Obey

http://www.ask.com/bar?q=What%27s+th...orders-we.html

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Old March 29, 2009, 10:41 PM   #12
OuTcAsT
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Something many people don't fully understand is that the military is only strong as the result of a firm chain of command based upon clear moral authority. Do something unconstitutional and the moral clarity dissolves, and with it, the moral authority of leadership. Faced with an uncertain situation lacking moral authority, orders and missions will be questioned. Now, recall that you are dealling with people with an above average sense of dedication and loyalty to the nation, the Constitution and its PEOPLE. It won't be long before an officer or 2 recognize their orders are illegal and unconstitutional. The chain of command begins to crumble once the first field grade or general officer refuses an illegal order.
I believe you are correct, this likely would take place.

Quote:
The ranks will crumble and sides will be taken

Without a doubt, also likely.

However:

Quote:
The citizens will not face an organized military.
They may not face a military organized as it is now, but there will quickly be a chain of command established on both sides. the larger dynamic will be which side can organize first, and:

Quote:
Protect strategic weapons and delivery systems FROM EVERYONE. No one will be able to approach any silo, sub or other nuclear capable asset. No questions will be asked and no allegiences will be tollerated except the Constitution.
That's the kicker, it will come down to whose version of the COTUS you are defending.

You can bet that the executive and legislative branches are not going to stand around while the 'other side' gets it's sierra together.

Quote:
Notify the world that any attempt to interfere with our internal squabble will be met with nuclear weapons. In the nuclear age, and the world stage as written today, our enemys would view our squable as an opportunity. I feel confident that ouside forces would be kept at bay by American military forces posturing with our nuclear weapons.
Unless things have changed drastically since 1985 or so, the "keys" to the silos and subs are in the presidents' pocket. the military or resistance may secure em' but they can't fire em' up. So it's gonna depend on which side the commander-in-chief is on as to who has the big stuff.
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Old March 29, 2009, 11:00 PM   #13
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Us soldiers have fired on civilians in the past, without the nation's collapse being a prerequisite. Do a little research.

In the event of a national collapse, the answer is a definate yes, some will, just as some will today, if ordered. Specualtion beyond that is, I feel outside the proper boundaries of this forum, so this thread is closed.

If other mods feel it worthwhile, they may certainly reopen it.
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