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Old February 26, 2009, 04:42 PM   #76
maestro pistolero
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Actually, thats not true. Eventually, drying up the supply will help.
That could take a very, very long time, and the powerful cartels will simply start getting AKs from third world. This approach to Mexican gun control is even more absurd and futile than the so-called war on drugs.

If you want to measure our likelihood of success in stemming the flow of guns even in to this country, post any new AWB, we need only examine our success rate in stemming the flow of illegals and millions of tons of drugs.

If the demand is high enough, the drugs, illegal immigrants, and guns will flow into and out of Mexico, and the US, in wholesale fashion.
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Old February 26, 2009, 04:43 PM   #77
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auditthosebastids
I don't like the idea of deliberate scofflaw dealers, but the ultimate problem is the straw purchaser, not the dealer.

Dealers can't know every purchaser that comes in. Just can't happen. There are dozens and dozens of gun stores in the Phoenix area, and were I the straw purchasing type, I could buy one gun a week to give to my drug buddies at a profit and not hit the same store again for a year.

Even if I have only a dozen stores I run my straw purchases thru, I won't end up at the same store again for 3 months.

How many repeat customers do you get every 3 months, WA? I have a hard time going 3 months without buying a gun to add to my collection.

The straw purchase elimination point is squarely in the hands of NICS and the ATF, seems to me. They should be able to see the same buyer hitting multiple or the same stores on a high volume basis, follow the 4473 trail at each of the stores, and notice that "Lucita Delacruz" is buying half a dozen Glock 19's a month.

Then the ATF can work with FBI or DEA and see if little Lucita has known associates with bad histories. Tail her for a bit and act if necessary.

Believe me... those of us down here who do sell guns from time to time in FTF transfers are not selling to illegals or drug runners. I've been asked for a CCW Permit to qualify for a purchase before, and I've also asked for them myself when selling.

God forbid the ATF does actual police work against bad guys rather than just stomping around at gun shows or hauling every byte of data possible back to their desks so they can datamine NICS for some poor sucker who just owns a lot of guns...

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Old February 26, 2009, 05:02 PM   #78
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I don't like the idea of deliberate scofflaw dealers, but the ultimate problem is the straw purchaser, not the dealer.
Bull hockey pucks....straw men are so easy to spot its pathetic

Quote:
Dealers can't know every purchaser that comes in. Just can't happen. There are dozens and dozens of gun stores in the Phoenix area, and were I the straw purchasing type, I could buy one gun a week to give to my drug buddies at a profit and not hit the same store again for a year.
Those are the hard ones, agreed....and that is the job of ATF to ID those guns and talk to the shops nicely. But thats not theway they do it, they are far more blatant than that....

Quote:
How many repeat customers do you get every 3 months, WA? I have a hard time going 3 months without buying a gun to add to my collection.
I try to know everybody by name

Quote:
The straw purchase elimination point is squarely in the hands of NICS and the ATF, seems to me. They should be able to see the same buyer hitting multiple or the same stores on a high volume basis, follow the 4473 trail at each of the stores, and notice that "Lucita Delacruz" is buying half a dozen Glock 19's a month.
So we agree that audits are important?

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Old February 26, 2009, 05:19 PM   #79
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I don't have a problem with the ATF checking dealers.

I have a serious problem with a new AWB.
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Old February 26, 2009, 05:37 PM   #80
Bartholomew Roberts
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I don't have a problem with the ATF checking dealers.
I believe under the current law ATF is limited in how often it can conduct dealers outside of an active third party investigation. This was a result of the 1986 FOPA. Prior to that, ATF had determined that while revoking an FFL's license was very difficult, it was no problem at all to audit him repeatedly until he went out of business.

On a side note, reading the footnotes of that article is like some kind of Orwellian nightmare. Can you imagine someone comes to you and asks you to make an illegal machinegun, you call the ATF to report them and YOU are the one who gets arrested and charged in court?
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Old February 26, 2009, 05:46 PM   #81
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I believe under the current law ATF is limited in how often it can conduct dealers outside of an active third party investigation. This was a result of the 1986 FOPA. Prior to that, ATF had determined that while revoking an FFL's license was very difficult, it was no problem at all to audit him repeatedly until he went out of business.
That is why they do investigations. They can trace crime guns from the manufacturer to the dealer. If a certain dealer has a very high rate of guns used in crimes or found across the border it would certainly be cause to look over the dealers records.

Doing all of that has nothing to do with an AWB other than the fact that what the AG says he wants to stop with the AWB is already ilegal under current law so there should be no need for the AWB.
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Old February 26, 2009, 05:57 PM   #82
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Of course we need to find anyone who breaks laws - FFLs or pimps or credit frauders. But the fact some other country sucks and can't take care of its business shouldn't be our reason to do so, or change our level of motivation. The Netherlands aren't going to ramp up how fast they spend their tax dollars vetting their "coffee shops" because it creates headaches for our customs agents when kids are coming home. Nor should Canada step up their traffic enforcement because some under-21 US citizens might get drunk up there and then create a problem when they head home.

The thread's kind of spun off way into left field. Whether enforcing the existing laws more enthusiastically is the right thing to do or not (and as always: why can't we just enforce the "don't hurt people" law and forget about guns?) - the point here is that this is a pretty sorry excuse to reinstate an unconstitutional ban that failed to bear fruit the first time. I guess these folks just want to be remembered as the "second chance" administration, willing to try anything that history shows won't work.
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Old February 26, 2009, 06:04 PM   #83
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It's wrong headed thinking by Holder, no matter his agenda, which I believe is to make the ownership of guns so onerous as to reduce the number of people who are willing to submit to the pain to own one. That's the real target with him, no pun intended.

Also, what's to stop the drug cartels from switching to shotguns with 00 buck shot. That's a dangerous gun in a shootout. Yes, you can only hold 5 or 6 rounds in most of them, but each round fires multiple lead balls. With 3 inch or 3.5 inch magums, you get pretty decent velocity as well.

As people have stated however, the drug runners have lots of cash and can easily buy full auto weapons, RPG's, grenades and other weapons. A US assault weapons ban would be like mowing a 640 acre sod farm with a walk behind reel mower with respect to addressing the crime problem in Mexico.
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Old February 26, 2009, 06:09 PM   #84
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With 3 inch or 3.5 inch magums, you get pretty decent velocity as well.
Actually as shell length increases, velocity goes down in most cases (Magnum = more lead not powder), but your point is still valid. 9-18 .33 caliber pellets with each pull of the trigger.

Don't give Holder any ideas about my beloved scattergunwoobies though......
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Old February 26, 2009, 06:10 PM   #85
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why can't we just enforce the "don't hurt people" law and forget about guns?)
Because then our elected representatives would have to actually hold a job, because there wouldn't be as much for them to "work on" in Washington.
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Old February 26, 2009, 06:36 PM   #86
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Is anyone really surprised? This is the "Hope" and "Change" I expected with this new administration. Looks to me like the Dems will be able to shove whatever they want to down our throats whenever they feel like it since they just pushed through the spendulous with very little relative problem.

High rhetoric and blustering is just about all the Republicans have left. And we all know what that's worth. The few Republicans that do have a spine are too few in number to avoid being steamrolled. This, along with other things, is why I am no longer a Republican.

Not to be alarmist but you better get em while you still can IMO.

Sad but expected.
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Old February 26, 2009, 06:45 PM   #87
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jakeswensonmt,

Thanks for setting me straight - I didn't notice the "Most Popular" box. I still can't find it as a search but maybe that's because it hasn't been archived because it is so popular. Anyway, so much for my conspiracy theory. I stand corrected.
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Old February 26, 2009, 06:49 PM   #88
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From the ABC story:

Quote:
"Some recent Mexican army and police confrontations with drug cartels have resembled small-unit combat, with cartels employing automatic weapons and grenades," the warning said.
So are we shipping them grenades also? Lord knows how many of those are in private American hands just itching to ship them to Mexico.

Automatic weapons would be unaffected by the AWB as they already have their own set of regulations.

The ABC page has a "Comment and Contribute" section so make sure you all comment and contribute -- like it would do any good anyway -- but we can try..
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Old February 26, 2009, 06:57 PM   #89
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Does anyone besides me wonder if Obama and Holder and all the other Dems might have bought stock in in the gun and ammunition companies and are now reaping the rewards for scaring the sh*t out of everyone?

Didn't the terrorist sell all thier stock before 9/11 and then buy it back a couple of days later when it was cheap?

Am I the only one to smell a Rat hear?
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Old February 26, 2009, 06:59 PM   #90
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Mexico, schmexico....this was coming and everyone knew it.
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Old February 26, 2009, 07:15 PM   #91
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Holder's already been spanked for it by Pelosi (she's just probably mad that he tipped his hand this early) and not getting any support from Obama nor Biden.

Stay vigilant, but there's no need to panic yet.
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Old February 26, 2009, 07:16 PM   #92
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OK, this looks to have been a false alarm, the Attorney General talking out his butt without consulting either the President or Congress.

Rumor is that the President is NOT pleased because it's taking attention away from the agenda he wants to pursue, and as we saw, Nancy Pelosi seems to be rather miffed that she wasn't consulted at all.

Very good discussion, and I want to thank everyone for keeping it so pointed and on topic for most of the thread, but at this point it is starting to drift quite a bit, so I'm going to shut this down.

And remember, Eternal Vigilance is the Price of Liberty.
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Old February 26, 2009, 07:43 PM   #93
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Allow me to add, that this does not preclude a future thread in the event something similar occurs.

Thank you everyone.
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