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Old February 14, 2009, 05:08 PM   #101
AK103K
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The question is "When does that opportunity present itself?" It is entirely possible that it will not present itself, the BG will get his money (or whatever) and go away. That would be a fine outcome in my book.
Maybe a tolerable outcome, not fine.

I think some of the problem here, is what the problem is with most of these type threads, each poster has a narrow, specific scenario in their mind, when in reality, things are really always fluid, and there is no way to predict what will happen in the next breath, good or bad.

Yes, the bad guy could very well get the money, blow you a kiss, and walk, or maybe he blows you away as he goes, your the one taking the chance, you have to make the decision.

Personally, I'll be spending every possible second trying to get into position to deal with the worst, and not trust to luck. If you wait for him to make the first move, your screwing yourself, as you'll probably be to far behind the curve to recover.

In any case someone has a gun, you have two choices. The first, it to be as far away as possible, preferably behind cover, or in another town, or, get as close as you can get.

This may mean running to the target not from it. He cant shoot you if you have control of his hand with the weapon. He'll also have a tough time shooting you if he has to react to your action, just like you will to his. Being on the offense is better than being on the defense, especially if your at close range and your opponent has a gun.

Your also going to have to face the fact that your first response may not be with your gun. How are your grappling skills? Have you ever practiced disarming someone? I guess since this is a gun board, the only answer to the problem is your gun. If thats you plan, it might come up short. Most "plans" do.
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Old February 14, 2009, 08:54 PM   #102
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Statistics and percentage games with mutually exclusive historical data are of hueristic interest, but have no actual bearing on what my situation or your situation might be if we are involved in a self defense episode.
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Old February 14, 2009, 08:56 PM   #103
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That's one way of putting it....

Last edited by Creature; February 15, 2009 at 04:53 AM.
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Old February 15, 2009, 03:17 AM   #104
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My point was that inaction will get you injured or killed quicker than taking action.
Okay, prove that statement...or at least show evidence beyond the anecdotal (written or verbal) that supports it. Maybe you will persuade me, maybe not...but it is worth a try.

PS: I feel like i got left behind in this discussion. I hate it when real life gets in the way of my forum life.

PPS: Of course while you guys were in here bickering, I managed to score myself a nice Colt Anaconda.
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Old February 15, 2009, 03:24 AM   #105
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Although this has been disputed many times in this forum, this video clearly demonstrates why the Glock in .45 caliber works. Would you carry a .45 after seeing this video?
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Old February 15, 2009, 04:30 AM   #106
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Was it a .45 Glock? If so, what is the source of that information?
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Old February 15, 2009, 04:52 AM   #107
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I feel like i got left behind in this discussion.
You were.

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Okay, prove that statement...or at least show evidence beyond the anecdotal (written or verbal) that supports it.
I am way beyond having to prove anything to you PBP, especially since your experience in LE and the military, and your so-called actuary 'friend' in the insurance business, is telling you everything you need to know about this subject.

I gave you my personal experiences and why I made that statement, which by the way, anyone without blinders would have recognized as an opinion.
If you care for more details regarding my experiences, PM me and I can share some hospital photos displaying what compliance got me. I would be happy to show you my "anecdotal" evidence.
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Old February 15, 2009, 04:56 AM   #108
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So in other words, righteous indignation aside, your "point" was nothing but baseless opinion and nothing more. You have absolutely nothing to offer besides relating an event that may or may not have happened to you.
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Old February 15, 2009, 06:21 AM   #109
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Great job!

I worked as an armed guard in a bank that had been robbed several times in the past few years and had just returned from Operation Desert Storm as a Flight Medic and was expert qualified as a handgun marksman. This guard deserves credit for quick reaction under pressure, but you first have to realize a fact. A security guard's job consists of day to day activity that is mostly boredom, but you are paid the "extra money" to react if a situation arrises in which you are required to draw your firearm and take action, so this guard had probably been working all day on his feet chatting with the pharmacy staff and patrolling outside, but to react as quickly as he did is very commendable! Good job, Captian!
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Old February 15, 2009, 07:57 AM   #110
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I agree, that guy is really a true hero, not only did he put his life on the line in the police force, he did it yet once again in this situation. In a split second the outcome could have been completely different, I'm talking seconds, if not fractions of a second, and that's how long it would have taken the bad guy to shoot both the guard and the clerk. Take a look at this snapshot, this was a face off if I've ever seen one. As you can see here the guard put his life on the line for sure. No question in my mind that this guy was doing the right thing when he shot the bad guy, gun pointed right at him just a few feet away.

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Old February 15, 2009, 09:10 AM   #111
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Every possible scenario is different. In this case, in my opinion, the security guard acted correctly and I hope he gets a raise. Bottom line for me... It's like the old saying goes, "I'd rather be judged by twelve instead of carried by six."
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Old February 15, 2009, 09:26 AM   #112
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Wow.... what a read! Not sure how I missed this thread for so long. And actual good points on both sides of the fence.... and some on the fence.

Many years ago, maybe.... maybe I would think they would just take the goods and leave. Today? No. I work on a Gun Interdiction Team and I see absolutely no value for life with the people we deal with. None. Maybe the BG's are different where some of you live. Here, they would just as soon shoot you so there is less risk of being identified for even small crimes. I hear that from THEIR mouths while in handcuffs and taking them on that nice enjoyable ride to the jail.

No, I don't have "statistics" to back up anything. My statistics class professor spent the first 2 weeks showing us from various real life cases how stats can be twisted around to meet the compiler's needs anyway.

All I can say is if there is a 1% chance that he may shoot someone, I'll take that. And EVERYONE would agree to that small % I believe. I would rather not wonder about it after I had done nothing and he shot someone. I would much rather "explain" my actions after shooting him than explain my "lack of actions" to their next of kin.

The US has become way too "tolerant" on many issues in my opinion. And this is one that will cost lives.... when people freeze or hesitate because of all the PC and Sue Happy folks out there.... folks die.

Does every encounter have to end in a shooting? Most definitely NOT. It's the last thing I want to do. Once a weapon is brandished and there is a clear threat of life..... unfortunately it's time.

**stepping down off soapbox looking for HBP medicine**
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Old February 15, 2009, 09:56 AM   #113
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guard did great (esp when you see that stop action photo just above, yikes! ). one less druggie piece of shiite in the world.

what's the issue? some of you 2nd-guessers are hilarious.
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Old February 15, 2009, 11:32 AM   #114
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So in other words, righteous indignation aside, your "point" was nothing but baseless opinion and nothing more. You have absolutely nothing to offer besides relating an event that may or may not have happened to you.
No playboy. Once again you are trying to deflect. You made the claim...back in post #33. A so-called "verifiable" claim. But you failed to show actual numbers to back up your claim. You tapped danced, you deflected, and then you insisted that we try to disprove your claim.

My claim is not made on just "baseless opinion". It is based on experience. Experience paid for in blood and pain.

And now you are calling me a liar. How small of you. Not that I expected anything less from you. I trust that everyone in this forum, through your own writing in this thread, now sees you for what you really are.
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Old February 15, 2009, 11:50 AM   #115
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absolutely Creatch.
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Old February 15, 2009, 12:15 PM   #116
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Creature, once again you fail to add anything of substance to an argument. You made a very strong and definitive statement that not resisting is more likely to get you injured. A statement that is completely in contrast to all empirical data. Then you failed to back that up with anything other than a story that may or may not be true. Then when asked for anything beyond conjecture you become defensive and spend all your posts talking about me instead of defending your position. Then you try to counter what peetza added with more conjecture. Not surprising. It seems to be the extent of your involvement in most threads.

John went about his argument correctly and actually gathered information and formed a possibly relevant hypothesis. The information is not complete enough right now to make a strong argument but it is very compelling and could really go somewhere. You might want to pay attention to how he approached the topic.
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Old February 15, 2009, 12:18 PM   #117
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It seems to me that you did just the same. You added nothing. You still spout empirical data. Show us the data!
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Old February 15, 2009, 12:29 PM   #118
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As for empirical data, how "empirical" can you get when looking at my own experiences?

Come on, pbp, lets see that empirical data of which you write.
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Old February 15, 2009, 12:39 PM   #119
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Naw, you could find that data too if you wanted to...but you chose not to so I would like to see what you can contribute. Please, regale us with your numbers and statistics...or at least where/how you came across the data to support your belief.
I've avoided this thread pretty much up until now, but it has reached the point where I feel the need to join. Playboy Penguin, you have hit it right on the head, and the posts are obvious. Way too many folks here want to those with info to spoon-feed them, but whenever they are asked to do a little research on their own to provide the slightest support for their claims they choose not to do so. Sort of makes you wonder what they are afraid of finding.
FWIW, there is a reason EVERY major LE organization, EVERY major professional security organization, and EVERY major employee safety organization Tha I have looked at advocates compliance to robberies. It is hands down the best option as reported in dozens of independent studies and reviews. There has been one study that suggested otherwise, and the author of it has even gone on record saying that you shouldn't really trust it much because the data source was not a good one for using the data in that manner, but it was the only thing available.

Last edited by David Armstrong; February 15, 2009 at 12:47 PM.
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Old February 15, 2009, 12:48 PM   #120
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Okay, David. You stepped through that door....prove that
Quote:
EVERY LE organization, EVERY professional security organization, and EVERY employee safety organization advocates compliance to robberies.
Lets see that documentation.

Oh, I see that you edited your post...to read "that you have looked at." Glad I copied your post before you side stepped the issue with the edit button.
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Old February 15, 2009, 12:57 PM   #121
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There must be some variation of Murphy that proclaims threads with over 100 posts will become a train wreck.

Stick a fork in it; this one's done.
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