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Old January 28, 2009, 01:35 PM   #26
NavyLT
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Very true, DA.
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Old January 28, 2009, 01:39 PM   #27
Delaware_Dan
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Navy, you have a good point, but he is trying to buy from someone out of state. That would require a FFL right? If so I do not think that he could get it transfered to him. (handgun) I was pointing out that if his girlfriend buys him a pistol, I believe it has to be a "gift" or it would constitute a straw purchase. I could be wrong, but I think thats how it goes.
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Old January 28, 2009, 01:51 PM   #28
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That is true. He cannot purchase a firearm from a private party out of state without it going through an FFL. He cannot have a handgun transferred to him by an FFL because of his age. He cannot receive it as a gift from an out of state party either, because even an out of state gift must go through an FFL. If the firearm is transferred to his girlfriend by an FFL, and she intends to receive compensation from him for that firearm when the transfer occurs, it is a straw purchase.

It is not a straw purchase only under two conditions: 1. She purchases it with the specific purpose and intention of giving it to him as a true gift - no compensation at all for the firearm. 2. She purchases it for herself, with no intention of giving it or selling it to him. After she has it in her own personal collection and then decides to sell it to him, then it is a private party sale.

His statement "and thats how i went about getting all my others. my girlfriend buys them and gives them to me as a 'gift' " would indicate very stongly, especially since he put gift in quotes "gift", that she is conducted straw purchases. Or it would indicate that he has a very generous girlfriend.

So, yes DD, you are correct about the straw purchases. Sorry if I nit-pick words, I used to be a nuke in the Navy - other nukes will know where I am coming from

and, in some states, he cannot purchase or receive it as a gift from a private party, because state law may require private party sales/gifts to go through an FFL - California for all guns, PA for handguns come to mind quickly.
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Old January 28, 2009, 02:00 PM   #29
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Sorry if I nit-pick words
No prob, thats what makes a debate fun. I think we are on the same page.

For the OP, you should start phrasing your posts as hypotheticals.
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Old January 28, 2009, 04:41 PM   #30
tote'n a roscoe
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no my girlfriend has bought all of my handguns, and truly gifted them to me without any repayment. A TRUE GIFT. god i love this girl. and by the way we both live the same state
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Old January 28, 2009, 05:07 PM   #31
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no my girlfriend has bought all of my handguns, and truly gifted them to me without any repayment. A TRUE GIFT. god i love this girl. and by the way we both live the same state
Just be careful, I don't want to hear about you being railroaded like the government is doing to David Olofson.
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Old January 29, 2009, 01:05 PM   #32
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no my girlfriend has bought all of my handguns, and truly gifted them to me without any repayment. A TRUE GIFT. god i love this girl. and by the way we both live the same state
FWIW, if your girlfriend has bought all of your handguns, it is pretty obvious that she is buying guns for you on a regular basis, and that it is a straw purchase. YMMV, but I think you are on very thin ice legally. Whether you would come to the attention of ATF is doubtful, but if you did I think you'd be in trouble, and so would your girlfriend.
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Old January 29, 2009, 02:03 PM   #33
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Firearms transactions between residents of different states are governed by Federal Law. Title 18 Chapter 44 Section 922 also known as 18 USC 922 governs interstate firearms transactions, even between private individuals. First step is to download your own copy from here so that you can follow along:
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/1...2----000-.html

Here we go regarding private sales:

922(a)(3) makes it illegal for a private party to obtain any firearm from any out of state source with a couple of exceptions: firearms acquired by inheritance and long guns obtained from only FFLs and only under certain conditions.

922(a)(5) makes it illegal for a private party to transfer, sell or give away any firearm to another private party who does not reside in the same state, with two exceptions: again, firearms transferred by inheritance and the loan or rental of a firearm to a private party for temporary use for hunting or sporting.

922(b)(3) makes it illegal for a FFL to sell or deliver any firearm to any person outside of the state their business is located in except: they may sell or deliver long guns to out of state residents provided that the transfer occurs at the FFL's place of business, in person, and that the sale or transfer meets the requirements of both states' (the FFL and the recipient's) laws. Also excepted is the loan or rental of a firearm for temporary use for hunting or other sporting.

Now, state laws will define the scope of the exception to 922(b)(3) above. For instance, Texas state law says that a Texas resident may purchase long guns in contiguous states (as does Florida law as well). That does NOT mean a Texas resident may do a private transaction with an Oklahoma resident. What it does is define the limitation to the 922(b)(3) exception: an Oklahoma FFL can sell a long gun to a Texas resident, but a Montana FFL cannot, because of Texas law.

I do not know what restrictions are in place because of Michigan/Indiana laws. The easiest thing to do would be to call an FFL in the other state and ask them if they can sell long guns to residents of your state.

To sum it up:

A handgun obtained from an out of state source must be transferred to the recipient by an FFL in the recipient's state of residence.

A long gun obtained from an out of state source may always be transferred to the recipient by an FFL in the recipient's state of residence. In some cases, the long gun may be transferred to the recipient by an out of state FFL, at the location of the FFL's business, in person, if both state laws allow it.

Hanguns nor longguns may never legally transfer between two private parties who are residents of different states. The only exception is by inheritance when someone dies or temporary loans or rentals for SPORTING purposes. Not even gifts from parents to children are excepted.

Out of state handgun sales do NOT have to go FFL to FFL. The private party seller can ship the handgun to the recipient's FFL for transfer, if the recipient's FFL will receive the handgun from a private party. Most won't, but there is no law against it.


note what is in the red, this is federal law
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Old January 29, 2009, 03:16 PM   #34
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Now, state laws will define the scope of the exception to 922(b)(3) above. For instance, Texas state law says that a Texas resident may purchase long guns in contiguous states (as does Florida law as well). That does NOT mean a Texas resident may do a private transaction with an Oklahoma resident. What it does is define the limitation to the 922(b)(3) exception: an Oklahoma FFL can sell a long gun to a Texas resident, but a Montana FFL cannot, because of Texas law.
That part is incorrect, strait_shooter. A Montana FFL may certainly sell a long gun to a Texas or Florida resident. All of the "may purchase in contiguous states" laws enacted by the states now mean "may purchase in any state" if there is no other specific PROHIBITION.

August 2004 FFL newsletter published by BATFE:
Quote:
CONTIGUOUS STATE – PART 2
In an article that appeared in the December 2002
edition of the FFL Newsletter, we advised FFLs
that the “contiguous state” provisions of the Gun
Control Act were amended in 1986, and that the
GCA allows dealers to sell or dispose of a long
gun to a resident of another state provided, (1) the
purchaser was not otherwise prohibited from
receiving or possessing a firearm under the GCA,
and ( 2) the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply
with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and
seller’s States.
The condition of sale relating to compliance with
the applicable laws of both States cited above
continues to cause confusion among dealers,
particularly among those dealers who conduct
business in a State whose laws presently contain
language that allows “contiguous state” sales.
Historically, prior to the 1986 amendments to the
GCA, many States enacted provisions in their laws
that allowed their residents to acquire a long gun in
a contiguous State. For the most part, these State
law provisions were modeled after the contiguous
state provisions of the GCA. However, even
though the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow
the sale of long guns to residents of any State
pursuant to the conditions cited above, many States
have not yet amended their laws to reflect similar
language. ATF takes the position that if the laws
of a given State allow its residents to acquire a long
gun in a contiguous State, those laws also allow its
residents to acquire a long gun in any other State

where the laws of that State permit such
transactions, unless the language contained in that
State’s law expressly prohibits it residents from
acquiring a firearm outside that State.
Questions
regarding particular State law provisions should be
referred to your local ATF office.
There is no Prohibited, Unlawful, Shall Not, or any other negative wording in the Texas, Florida or Montana laws.
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Old January 29, 2009, 04:12 PM   #35
strait__shooter
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NavyLT, perhaps you should read what was written. now where does the post I printed from the ATF website say you could not buy a gun from another state. all it simply said was that if you do buy it, it has to be shipped to an ffl in your state to do so. however it does not have to be sent from an ffl. try reading what was written next time
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Old January 29, 2009, 05:47 PM   #36
NavyLT
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strait_shooter,
I quoted your post, which is still right above mine:
Quote:
What it does is define the limitation to the 922(b)(3) exception: an Oklahoma FFL can sell a long gun to a Texas resident, but a Montana FFL cannot, because of Texas law.
I don't see how you can argue what you posted when it is still there! That part has been re-defined by the BATFE and there are no longer any laws prohibiting the action that you stated was not legal.

The part that you put in red in your post is absolutely correct and I was not disputing that.

Quote:
try reading what was written next time
Maybe you should verify that what you are posting is still applicable.

Last edited by NavyLT; January 29, 2009 at 05:52 PM.
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Old January 29, 2009, 06:41 PM   #37
B.N.Real
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You go to a someone who is a Federal Firearms License holder who can legally transfer firearms from state to state and he goes to a Federal Firearms License holder who can legally transfer firearms from state to state and the two ffl people contact each other.

Each will have to verify to the other through faxed forms that they are who they are before anything else happens.

Each ffl person will verify the information on the others forms.

After filling out the forms
telling the ffl person what ffl person you want to send it too,
and paying the transfer fee
and providing the gun to be sent
-you are out of the loop after that.

Your ffl person makes sure that it gets legally sent to the place it needs to be sent too.

The ffl person on the other end makes sure it gets to who it was supposed to get to and that -that person gets the firearms only after all the laws of that state have been satisfied.

Last edited by B.N.Real; January 29, 2009 at 11:33 PM.
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Old January 30, 2009, 10:59 PM   #38
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There is no Prohibited, Unlawful, Shall Not, or any other negative wording in the Texas, Florida or Montana laws
Yes there is and that has been proven to you in other threads. It is a state law and when the state has a statue that declares a ffl dealer in their state may sell to a contiguous state or identifies particular states by name that may be sold to, then that is the law of the state....period. The state doesn't have to use words such as prohibited, shall not or unlawful. All they have to do is identify to whom the ffl dealer in their state may sell guns to. BATFE can put out all the news letters they wish declaring their interpretation of the federal law but they have no authority to force a state to amend their law. I'm not sure about Montana or Florida and I don't intend to go to the trouble to look it up but Oklahoma and Texas certainly have a contiguous clause in their gun laws as well as Ohio which I showed you once before.

One more time just for you......

"Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
Chapter 53 - Manufacture, Sale, and Wearing of Weapons
Section 1288 - Purchases of Firearms, Ammunition and Equipment in Contiguous States by Oklahoma Residents-Purchases in Oklahoma by Residents of Contiguous States

(a) Residents of the State of Oklahoma may purchase rifles, shotguns, ammunition, cartridge and shotgun shell handloading components and equipment in a state contiguous to the State of Oklahoma, provided that such residents conform to the applicable provisions of the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968, and regulations thereunder, as administered by the United States Secretary of the Treasury and provided further that such residents conform to the provisions of law applicable to such purchase in the State of Oklahoma and in the contiguous state in which the purchase is made.

(b) Residents of a state contiguous to the State of Oklahoma may purchase rifles, shotguns, ammunition, cartridge and shotgun shell handloading components and equipment in the State of Oklahoma provided that such residents conform to the applicable provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968, and regulations thereunder, as administered by the United States Secretary of the Treasury and provided further that such residents conform to the provisions of law applicable to such purchase in the State of Oklahoma and in the state in which such persons reside."

I believe Texas law is very similar to this and Ohio even goes farther by identifying the contiguous states surrounding them so I suspect it is pretty safe to say those states that have the contiguous law are very similar.

Last edited by Gohon; January 30, 2009 at 11:07 PM.
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Old January 31, 2009, 03:05 AM   #39
NavyLT
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You have your opinion. I have my opinion. My opinion happens to be supported by the BATFE in writing and also by the fact, as discussed in other threads, that my wife, a Wyoming resident, with a Wyoming driver's license, listing Wyoming as state of residence on two different 4473's at two different FFL's in Oklahoma has bought two different long guns there.

So, Gohon, please express your opinion, tell us what you think the law is, and let people make up their own decision, but, you need to get over the fact that at least two FFLs in Oklahoma do not agree with you and neither does the BATFE. You have not proven anything, published by any source with any authority to interpret the law, that would indicate that I am incorrect. If you would care to post some interpretation by someone with authority to interpret the law, I would welcome to see it. Otherwise, just state what YOU think the law is, and I will post what has been published by BATFE and leave it at that.

And, since you are refuting my statement that:
"There is no Prohibited, Unlawful, Shall Not, or any other negative wording in the Texas, Florida or Montana laws" by your reply of:
"Yes there is and that has been proven to you in other threads"

Then prove it, post the law that has Prohibited, unlawful, shall not or any other negative wording regarding out of state FFL sales of long guns in any of the states I mentioned.

Last edited by NavyLT; January 31, 2009 at 03:11 AM.
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Old January 31, 2009, 08:45 AM   #40
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Quote:
that my wife, a Wyoming resident, with a Wyoming driver's license, listing Wyoming as state of residence on two different 4473's at two different FFL's in Oklahoma has bought two different long guns there.
That's what you claim but personally I'm not buying it....pun intended. Send me the name and phone numbers of these two FFL dealers and I'll personally call them myself and ask them. I'll even post the name and number of the very person I spoke to at that FFL dealer and anyone can call him. The only way those guns could have been purchased as you claim was (1) it was before the State statute was written or, (2) the two FFL dealers committed a felony. The state law I posted was given to me by a FFL dealer who flat out said he could not and would not sell to anyone that was from other than a contiguous state. I have since checked with several other FFl dealers who say the same thing. They are bound by state law, not some news letter from BATFE. It is not just my opinion....it is STATE law.

What you seem to be missing is the fact that states can add to any federal law as long as it is stricter than the federal law. The BATFE interperation has no authority to force any state to go by the minimum federal law imposes. For example, "Starting July 1st, 2008, FFLs wishing to send a firearm to a California FFL must first register with the California Dept. of Justice (CA DOJ), submit the details of the transaction(s), and then wait for the CA DOJ to issue a “Firearms Shipment Approval” letter. The letter must be enclosed within the gun shipment and the receiving FFL in California must retain the letter for three (3) years. Curios and relics are exempt, but otherwise this applies to all firearms — handguns, rifles, and shotguns."

This is all perfectly legal and BATFE has no authority to force California to only enforce the minimum Federal law. Want to take a guess why California wrote this law? Of course it is to keep guns out of California, and out of state FFL dealers will most likely find their request denied with very few exceptions. So if states write a statute that says sales only to contiguous states then it is a felony if the FFl dealer does otherwise.

Last edited by Gohon; January 31, 2009 at 09:25 AM.
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Old January 31, 2009, 09:59 AM   #41
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Gohon,

Go back and look at the previous thread. I posted who the FFL's were!

What you seem to be missing is that the states in question have not prohibited or forbid anything regarding out of state FFL sales of long guns and they NEVER HAVE! Unless a law prohibits or forbids an action it is is legal. The Federal law used to prohibit non-contiguous out of state FFL sales with no exceptions, and used to prohibit contiguous state sales unless state law specifically allowed it. The state law was ONLY a Federal law EXCEPTION allowed by that Federal law. Now, the Federal law prohibition since 1986 is gone. With no Federal law prohibition in place, and no specific PROHIBITION in state law, the state law EXCEPTIONS that were in place are basically meaningless. In these cases there is no law PROHIBITING that act, because the ONLY law that did PROHIBIT was repealed in 1986!

And if you call FFLs and get their answers to this question...SO WHAT?!? It's not FFLs who interpret firearms laws. It is the BATFE who interprets Federal firearms laws and the state AG who interprets state laws. So why don't you call the actual experts on the interpretation of the law, both state and Federal and ask them?

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Dallas Field Division
1114 Commerce Street
Room 303
Dallas, TX 75242
(469) 227-4300
Fax (469) 227-4330

AND, here's a kicker for you GOHON. You say Texas law is the same. Let's look at Texas law, shall we?
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u.../htm/PE.46.htm
Sec. 46.07. INTERSTATE PURCHASE. A resident of this state may, if not otherwise precluded by law, purchase firearms, ammunition, reloading components, or firearm accessories in contiguous states. This authorization is enacted in conformance with Section 922(b)(3)(A), Public Law 90-618, 90th Congress.

Wow. Looks like, according to you, Texans are REALLY screwed. They can't buy ammunition, reloading components or firearms accessories anywhere outside of Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arkansas and Louisiana. It would REALLY suck to be a TEXAN, according to you!

Last edited by NavyLT; January 31, 2009 at 10:28 AM.
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Old January 31, 2009, 11:49 AM   #42
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Alright, GOHON, here you go. You want an FFL phone number that will verify what I am saying? Call this one:
405-329-4000.

Who is it? Wal-Mart. Every Wal-Mart in the state of Oklahoma that sells rifles and shotguns has a red/green map of states at their gun counters. There are EXACTLY 8 states that are red on their map. I did not ask which 8 states they CANNOT sell to, because that is irrelevant. They can sell to residents of 42 states that are green on their map.

But, I guess every Wal-Mart in the state of Oklahoma is selling rifles and shotguns illegally. Or it must be some special exception for Wal-Mart or something that you will come up with, you being an experienced federal agent and all.

Every Wal-Mart that sells rifles and shotguns in any state has those maps. I guess all the Walmarts in all the states that have "contiguous states allowed" laws are illegally selling rifles and shotguns. Somebody really should report them.
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Old January 31, 2009, 01:47 PM   #43
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Quote:
Who is it? Wal-Mart. Every Wal-Mart in the state of Oklahoma that sells rifles and shotguns has a red/green map of states at their gun counters. There are EXACTLY 8 states that are red on their map. I did not ask which 8 states they CANNOT sell to, because that is irrelevant. They can sell to residents of 42 states that are green on their map.
That is so funny........... that's information I gave to you weeks ago about the placards in the WalMart stores when you were also putting out this erroneous information. Only one big problem though, it is completely backwards. There are six states according to the statute I gave you, not 8. The six are I believe are in a green color. Oklahoma is colored blue. The rest of the states are red. They can sell to the green states but not the red states. In other words the states in green are contiguous states. Nice try but I now it is easy to see why WalMart had to suspend selling guns in some states because employees couldn't follow proper state laws.

Add on.... Just called two different WalMarts and they indeed told me what you just said. When I asked where they are getting their guide lines from they both said I don't know, that's just what they send us and neither knew who they were. So I called three different gun shops in Tulsa. These were places that deal in nothing but selling and buying guns. All three said absolutely not that they were forbidden to sell to other than contiguous states by Oklahoma law. I guess if they ever decided to start selling toilet paper and spark plugs they would change their guidelines.

Quote:
Sec. 46.07. INTERSTATE PURCHASE. A resident of this state may, if not otherwise precluded by law, purchase firearms, ammunition, reloading components, or firearm accessories in contiguous states. This authorization is enacted in conformance with Section 922(b)(3)(A), Public Law 90-618, 90th Congress.

Wow. Looks like, according to you, Texans are REALLY screwed. They can't buy ammunition, reloading components or firearms accessories anywhere outside of Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arkansas and Louisiana. It would REALLY suck to be a TEXAN, according to you!
You really don't get it do you. Texas or any other state for that matter that uses the contiguous law is not telling their residents they can only buy ammunition in a contiguous state but that they may/can because of reciprocal agreements between border states. Oklahoma has the same wording in their law. What it means fellow is they are guaranteed that they can buy these things. It means these states will never have a law not to sell them certain items. Fact is if North Dakota for example sold long guns to anyone out of state, Texas wouldn't give a tinkers squat if a Texas resident purchased a long gun there straight out. Heck LT, if you can't understand that, I really don't know what to tell you

Last edited by Gohon; January 31, 2009 at 02:35 PM.
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Old January 31, 2009, 06:50 PM   #44
NavyLT
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Gohon,

It is very obvious to me, and to probably everyone else who reads this that you are just making crap up as you go.

'Nough said.
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Old February 1, 2009, 12:06 AM   #45
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The urination contest stops now.
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