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Old January 14, 2009, 03:49 PM   #26
Musketeer
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The NRA has been losing ground the last 50 years, and I am not sure a 4 year span without an AWB, or Heller really represents a reversal of that trend.
Another who does not see the importance of Heller, recognize the advancement of Right to Carry/Shall Issue permits in 38+ states, Castle Doctrine laws in many states, or the Lawful Protection of Commerce in Arms act as anything worth while.

Then there is the AWB... Do you GOA guys think it would NOT have gone through had the NRA stood on principal and completely opposed it? It was going through, like it or not. The NRA though got the sunset clause added which is why it is not Federal Law now.

How about post VT, of course the GOA spun that as "Veterans Disarmament" as part of their attack on the NRA to gain membership dollars but the bottom line is the NRA got a solid path for the return of rights to many who had lost them while also deflecting what would have been some truly nasty legislation after that tragedy by taking the lead.

Then there of course were the Katrina lawsuits.

Then there was the Brady Bill, which was going through no matter what, which they got the instacheck added to to eliminate the waiting federal waiting period.

That's right, the NRA has done nothing...

Odd question, is Larry Pratt hard up for cash? It seems the GOA attacks are on the rise again.
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Old January 14, 2009, 03:51 PM   #27
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I would not expect GOA to do as much as the NRA as they don't have near the financial resources.
and of course there is the little problem of any national level legislator you ask on the matter responding with "Who?" when you mention them. The GOA may be able to get some legislators to agree with them who would automatically be on the NRA's side of an issue as well due to ideology but they have zero chance of influencing the middle of the road legislators who see them only as fanatics.
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Old January 14, 2009, 07:11 PM   #28
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Somehow, I had a feeling that this was just another "The GOA Bashes The NRA" thread.

...sigh...
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Old January 14, 2009, 07:21 PM   #29
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Truth be told I would prefer the second be repealed all at once than the slow destruction it faces. Then we might get a real response out of those gun owners who are not involved.
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Old January 14, 2009, 08:36 PM   #30
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We need to capture influence back in universities, law schools and the legal community, journalism schools, maybe buy a few large newspapers (Why the hell is it only rabid leftists buying newspapers and bending them to their leftist purposes?), the advertising atmosphere, law enforcement upper management, the non profit sector, the medical community, various ethnic communities, etc. Fund scholarships. Speak at lectures. Offer internships with TMLLP, Alan Gura, and similar law firms for law students, biz internships at firearms manufacturers and other companies relevent to RKBA and related outdoor activities, recruit the top interns for pro RKBA lobbying and pro 2A lawmakers instead of the antis (so much so the antis can't get any good ones or dream of all dreams any at all), influence funding for academics by rerouting funding away from anti 2A professors and their projects and/or offer substitutes, and so forth. Have every NRA and other RKBA organization member withold direct contributions to universities until they reverse their policies against campus carry, and possibly instead contribute to those that allow it.

In short we need to kick the anti gun establishment out of its nests and thereby eradicate it as an influential ideological and political force. Not until we start doing that will we be rid of it--and being rid of it rather than merely playing ping pong with it needs to be our long term goal. Sure, keep doing what we're doing in the courts and the legislature, but we need much deeper, much more permanent solutions to the problem which will squelch its recurrence by cutting it out from the source. We need to transition from a Vietnam War approach--see an enemy, squash it, wait till another one pops up, but go little further--to a World War 2 approach which is attack the enemy's weapons and its infrastructure, directly eliminating its ability to continue to fight not just the next day but ever again at all. Winning today to lose tomorrow is useless. Our rights and our place in American society and the world as a whole is not something that should be subject to the changing winds of politics or capricious pop culture. We must attack the source of the problem and wipe it out--it is without question the opposition's goal is to do the same to us. Why this has so long been a lost idea to our side for so long I have no clue but the cluelessness of too many on our side to this reality has got to stop.

Almost all here know how the problem exists in these areas I address, but we're too busy fighting the products rather than the process. Guess what, folks, the process is going to keep producing the problems until we shut down the factory.

Case in point: BHO is a product of the factory which you can clearly see he went directly from education to law to anti 2A org to politics--breaking the mechanism would have shut him down, possibly had him on our side instead, defunded the organizations, stripped them of members and influence, removed the influence upon doctors and lawyers to get them to contribute portions of some of the nation's top incomes to anti RKBA orgs and candidates, shut down the spin factories, and made there be little anti RKBA influenced electorate via institutional brainwashing. Cost? A few scholarships of $10-30k, a few internship salaries and perks bumped up another $5k, a 51% stake in a newspaper or two that right now is selling for pennies on the dollar, sponsored spots in a non hunting/shooting mag or three, lobbying in university boards to reverse certain policies and prevent certain types from getting funding and tenure, and a little gladhanding in places that aren't usually in the limelight. DIRT CHEAP compared to trying a high profile case, funding a political campaign which win means little and lose means nothing, or a ballot measure. And fractions of a penny compared to the hundreds of millions of dollars which got that puppet elected.

Just suggesting we try something different in addition to what we already do. What the NRA does isn't wrong, but it is insufficient. Not that they're doing the right things at insufficient levels--they are constrained by how much can be done at a time and perhaps over cautiousness--but also that there's more work to be done that isn't being done at the moment. Thoughts anyone?
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Old January 14, 2009, 08:58 PM   #31
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Wait, are you promoing a third option Yellowfin? Do you have such an organization? I am sold.
Can we somehow mix in asymetric warfare? Legalize pot and give out a highpoint with each bag so the hippies turn to our side or kill themselves off? I could deal with pot smoking gun loving hippy. Would probably be better than a drunk redneck actually. If not I am still on board.
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Old January 14, 2009, 09:36 PM   #32
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I think the NRA does more good than damage personally. They educate lots of folk, help support gun ranges, created high power matches (which use those pesky AR-15s, M1s, M1As and M1 carbines AWs all). Do they compromise more than I would like ideally from my libertarian viewpoint, yep. Do I understand why, yep. I am a member of the NRA and JPFO, I send money to the CATO institute and NRA-ILA and am planning to donate to the SAF. The NRA is the 800 pound gorilla of D.C. lobbying organizations which is the main reason I am a member. I send money to CATO because they have a track record of success promoting libertarian ideals. I am a member of the JPFO because I need to support a no compromise group also or I'll feel all dirty like I did voting for McCain. I am not a member of GOA because I'm already helping support one rabid pit bull organization and they are local to me.
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Old January 14, 2009, 11:01 PM   #33
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JPFO seems like the best one to me really. I just didn't join them b/c, you know, I'm not Jewish. I felt like I wasn't invited.
EDIT: I just decided that I have had two Jewish roommates and that makes me jewish enough. Lifetime member of JPFO come tomorrow.
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Old January 15, 2009, 10:22 AM   #34
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"I would say if you have to choose one choose GOA"

I wouldn't, the GOA has issued too many lie-filled statements for me to back them. Specifics are easily found by using the search function on tfl and thr.

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Old January 15, 2009, 12:01 PM   #35
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I'm not Jewish either but how Jewish do you have to be to oppose government having a monopoly on force.
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Old January 15, 2009, 02:56 PM   #36
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GOA does seems to get a bit emotional and jump on the bandwagon before anyone really knows where the wagon is headed. If they would wait a bit until more details came out on some stories it would probably serve them well. I still prefer my hot headed bull dog to the NRA.

Sugar Lobby
Cuban Lobby
Both are much smaller than the gun lobby, but get what they want because they will not compromise or stop.
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Old January 15, 2009, 03:18 PM   #37
Glenn E. Meyer
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influence funding for academics by rerouting funding away from anti 2A professors and their projects and/or offer substitutes, and so forth.
This isn't clear to me. If you meant that funding for projects that have scholarly or scientific merit and nothing to do with gun shouldn't be granted because of 2nd Amend. beliefs of the researcher, I would strongly disagree.

Also, research on firearms issues should be empirically based on peer reviewed evaluations of the merit of the project.

We've had TOO much ideology in the management of science lately.
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Old January 15, 2009, 03:23 PM   #38
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We've had TOO much ideology in the management of science lately.

Amen...but good luck getting rid of it. It's the new academia...College campuses have become festering sewers for pushing social or political agendas. All of them hi-jacking 'science' to 'prove' ideas that are either opinion or faith-based, or those that are entirely subjective or impossible to quantify. Another generation or two and the term 'science' may very well be meaningless. "Creation science" comes to mind.

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Old January 15, 2009, 04:09 PM   #39
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The Sugar lobby and the Cuba lobby are disproporionately powerful because they can deliver a swing state with significant electoral votes (or at least create that impression and keep it from being challenged). Their success has nothing to do with their willingness to compromise or lack of it. They are successful because they negotiate from a position of power.

The NRA has a more difficult task as getting gun owners to act cohesively is a task that makes herding cats look tame by comparison. As long as there is even a perception that the NRA cannot deliver one or more large swing states or that gun owners can be easily mollified by vague platitudes about your support for the Second Amendment (despite a lifetime of opposition to it), the NRA will be dealing from a weaker, albeit still strong, position.
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Old January 16, 2009, 09:10 PM   #40
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If the key is controlling a swing state(and I agree it is), why doesn't the NRA put any money into that? Just send a mailing out that says everyone that is able should move to Florida, Ohio and wherever else. Most people are locked into a location, but many "self sufficient" people are not. Surprisingly NRA membership overlaps greatly with that group of people.
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Old January 16, 2009, 09:54 PM   #41
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I am a member of the NRA for one main reason. They are the only guys doing anything about anything. The NRA has been around since just after the Civil War and frankly they have done more to raise awareness than just about all other combined. Ya maybe they go overboard sometimes but there still doing a boat load of good.
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Old January 17, 2009, 07:23 PM   #42
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NRA GOA Comparisons ?

Will some one please list 10 "gun owner-2nd ammendment right" things each of the organizations have accomplished in the past 10 years ?

Who is the leadership behind the GOA ? Where does their major funding come from ?

Where was GOA in the Washington DC suit ? How about Shall issue rights ? Castle doctrine laws ? Etc., etc.

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Old January 18, 2009, 04:41 AM   #43
Bartholomew Roberts
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If the key is controlling a swing state(and I agree it is), why doesn't the NRA put any money into that? Just send a mailing out that says everyone that is able should move to Florida, Ohio and wherever else. Most people are locked into a location, but many "self sufficient" people are not. Surprisingly NRA membership overlaps greatly with that group of people.
Well, Pennsylvania has the highest per-capita number of NRA members of any state in the Union. It has also been a key swing state in the last 3 elections and has swung to the Democrats in every single one of them. Around 30% of gun owners supported Gore, 33% supported Kerry and more than that clearly supported Obama (including one of my own AR15 owning relatives much to my dismay).

As you may recall, the NRA spent millions of dollars trying to swing Pennsylvania in this election (not to mention Ohio and Florida). They touted Obama's past record on firearms quite extensively - to the degree that the Obama campaign even threatened them with lawsuits in an attempt to silence them. Despite that all of these swing states went to Obama. The NRA can only inform and educate its members, it can't kick in doors and prevent its members from making votes that do not place a priority on the Second Amendment.

Given the NRA has been unable to swing the state where it has the highest number of members per capita, I would probably regard an NRA flyer advising me to move to Pennsylvania with some disdain - and can you imagine what the people who regularly complain about the NRA would say in response to that?
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Old January 19, 2009, 05:33 PM   #44
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Having spent a fair piece of my life in Pennsylvania and a few other places where people like me are "bitter" and "clinging to our guns and religion" -- most people (not most on this board, but most in general) vote economic issues ahead of everything, and their general feeling on foreign policy second.

Mr. Roberts earlier, excellent post on party politics and John Dingell illustrates that not everyone can or will be a one issue voter. I met Congressman Dingell only a year or two before that. He told me at the time he spent over 30% of his time on RKBA issues. He also a large amount of his time on auto industry related issues, logical given his constituency. So he apparently he decided he had to compromise on one vote to retain his considerable leverage to accomplish good in the future.

Successful long-term political activism is realistic. We live in a country where maybe 50%, maybe 75%, of our population is lukewarm or ignorant or apathetic about RKBA. We all need to take that into account in our advocacy. Changing tactics is not necessarily compromising core principles.
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Old January 19, 2009, 06:16 PM   #45
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Change your NRA magazine from American Rifleman to America's First Freedom. I chose it because I'm much more concerned with the legal landscape than hunting.
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