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Old November 23, 2008, 11:32 AM   #1
j.chappell
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243 WIN for 1000 Yards

I have another question for all of you long range shooters.

Why not use the 243 Win for long range? A 100gr Sierra from a 243 Win has 60" less drop at 1000 yards than a 308 175gr Sierra. The 243 Win also has only 4 more inches of wind drift at 1000 yards with a 10mph crosswind. Both bullets are still supersonic at that range.

I am just wondering as I have both 243's and my 308 that shoot very well and I want to set one rifle up for extreme long range.

J.

Last edited by j.chappell; November 23, 2008 at 11:35 AM. Reason: Thought the velocity might be an ellement.
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Old November 23, 2008, 11:43 AM   #2
kraigwy
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I've seen several 243s at 1000 yard matches. They always held their own. Now they make heavier match grade bullets if your twist will take them.

Use to be the 300s mags were the go to rifle at 1000 yard matches, but you see more and more 6mms. I wouldnt hesitate to use a 243 at 1000 yards.

Heck I shoot my White Oak Service rifle at 1000 yards and its 223.

If the proper rifle you wont be handy capped with a 243 except in the most servere wind, then the 308 wont cut it either.
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Old November 23, 2008, 11:45 AM   #3
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J,

Have a look at what 1000 yard competition shooters are using; in my case Fullbore TR we are restricted to only using Military cals so .303, 223/5.56 and 7.62/308 but these cals do very well and are well tested by us that shoot it. I believe the Palma match boys shoot the 155gr Win like we do and pretty sure the Hi-Power boys stick pretty close to Military cals also ...

You may be far more free to play with various cals, projectiles and loads than we are but I would argue that comp shooters have plenty more experience and data using those cals than anybody does with most others ... try 100 years in the case of Fullbore with .303 ... as an aside the .303 round gets BETTER the longer it runs ... so 1200 yards etc ... not kidding.

Quite a few guys are moving to the lighter cals and doing well but we have just had a new projectile introduced into Fullbore that will leave the 5.56mm boys behind.

There's plenty to it but I personally like .303 and .308 for 1000 yard stuff.

Best, TR,
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Old November 23, 2008, 12:16 PM   #4
j.chappell
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Thanks fellas, I am getting more and more interested in this style of shooting and just want to start out right so I am not frustrated.

J.
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Old November 23, 2008, 12:28 PM   #5
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J.

It's a lot of fun , and you will certainly face an issue or two at some point in the process . That's what makes it so much fun wringing everybit out of your rifle , yourself and your loads.
It still amazes me at times that you can fire a projectile at that range and be very confident of your POI.

Mike
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Old November 23, 2008, 01:04 PM   #6
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Nothing wrong with the 243 win for long range shooting. Check the BC on the 115 gr DTAC bullet.

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Old November 25, 2008, 09:30 AM   #7
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I think it would work great, with the heavier bullets. Just need the right twist. I have been tempted to pop a 6-6.5X47 Lapua on one of my Savages, since I'm already loading for the 6.5. If you start looking at trajectories, the 308 looks more and more like a rainbow. Lots of good info here - http://www.6mmbr.com/243Win.html.
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Old November 25, 2008, 09:38 AM   #8
j.chappell
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Thanks, I have 2 243's that may work but I have not tried the heavier bullets to date. The heaviest I have shot in the 2 in question is 88gr Bergers and while accurate they are a flatbase bullet that is not designed for extreme range. They work great for what I do with them which is varmints of any size out to 400+ yards but for 1000 I am going to load the heaviest my rifle will shoot. I have some work to do at 200 and 300 before I make any decisions.

J.
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Old November 25, 2008, 02:53 PM   #9
skinewmexico
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I think Tubb and Berger are both making a bullet slightly lighter than the 115g now, for rifles with a shorter (more normal) throat. Might be worth checking out.
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Old November 25, 2008, 03:32 PM   #10
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how effective

how effective 243 will be at 1000 against humans if it was used to snipe in a war?
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Old November 25, 2008, 04:09 PM   #11
j.chappell
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Still moving at over the speed of sound and retaining around 350fpe I wouldnt want to just stand there. To give you a comparison that is more velocity and energy than a 38 or a 9mm at the muzzle.

J.

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Old November 25, 2008, 04:40 PM   #12
Michael
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The 6mm bullets are fantastic at distance but you need to think barrel life.

243 and 107's at 2850 are about equal to 1200 rounds of accurate service.
Then it 's a months long wait for a new barrel and chamber job and about $650.00 when you get it.
Drop that down to the Tubb 6mmXC and you double the life of the barrel with no decrease in long accuracy.
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Old November 25, 2008, 10:10 PM   #13
j.chappell
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Quote:
243 and 107's at 2850 are about equal to 1200 rounds of accurate service.
Why?

I have shot a couple thousand rounds from one of my 22-250's most of which were 3800+fps and I'd say a third of them were 4000+fps. I have seen no drop off in accuracy to date. So why would a 243 be limited to 1200 rounds of accurate service holding a 107 at 2800+? You are going to be burning less powder than if you were loading the lighter 6mm bullets let alone the 22-250.

Lets take for instance one of my really hot 22-250 loads (do not try this at home).

40gr Nosler ballistic tip
42.5gr WIN 760
4138fps

Now lets take for instance a max load of the same powder for the 107gr 243 WIN.

107gr Sierra BTHP
38gr WIN 760
2818fps

Now you are burning less powder in the 243 at a far lower fps in a larger bore, wouldnt it stand to reason then that the 22-250 should start to loose its accuracy potential long before the 243?

J.

*THESE LOADS ARE SAFE IN MY RIFLES AND SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED AS RECOMENDED LOADS FOR YOUR RIFLES*

Last edited by j.chappell; November 25, 2008 at 10:39 PM.
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Old November 25, 2008, 11:31 PM   #14
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j.chappell

Your logic is sound. There may be a discrepancy in what Michael considers "accurate service life" and what you consider "no drop off in accuracy to date". That's only one possibility. Another possibility could be he's referring to a competition gun that is used timed event matches. In a warm climate it is possible to increase throat wear by shooting the barrel HOT. Some benchresters consider the "accurate service life" to end when groups open up from .2's to .4's. There are also different types of rifling thought to affect barrel life. There are too many variables here to be sure, but I do think you have a legitimate point here.
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Old November 25, 2008, 11:33 PM   #15
skinewmexico
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I would so love to shoot out a barrel.
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Old November 25, 2008, 11:38 PM   #16
j.chappell
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Thats kind of how I was thinking. A bench gun that cant hold 2's and 3's anymore is no longer competitive. Compared to my varmint rifle, where my groups may range from .4"-.7", would have to open to say .7"-1" before I would be able to see the change and believe that it is a fall off in accuracy and not just my ability on that day.

J.
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Old November 26, 2008, 07:26 AM   #17
TheNatureBoy
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Are we talking about a standard .243 barrel or a bull barrel?
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Old November 26, 2008, 07:48 AM   #18
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jchappel,

As already stated.... if your .243 has a twist that will handle the longer bullets then there is no reason it can't cut the mustard at 1k yards. The DTAC 115 is a good bullet, as are the Berger 115 and the new JLK 115.

On the other hand........

The one reason that a lot of shooters stay away from the smaller bullets for long range is barrel life. For competitive 1k shooting you have to pretty much run velocity to the top end to take advantage of the smaller bullets best characteristics. This has a tendency in the smaller calibers to burn out the throat PDQ. Once that happens, accuracy suffers.... then, if you plan to stay competitive.... it's time to re-barrel.

The larger calibers have a ballistic advantage at the longer ranges at relatively lower, less throat burning velocities, with lots longer competitive barrel life as a bonus.

If you are not recoil sensitive and don't want to be paying for a new barrel every 1000 to 1200 rounds, then you may want to stick with the bigger bores. If recoil is a problem for you, and-or you have the pocketbook to afford the frequent barrel switches.... then by all means take advantage of the smaller bores.....

Just my two bits....

Best regards,
Swampy

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Last edited by Swampy1; November 26, 2008 at 08:17 AM.
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Old November 26, 2008, 08:44 AM   #19
j.chappell
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Quote:
The larger calibers have a ballistic advantage at the longer ranges at relatively lower, less throat burning velocities, with lots longer barrel life as a bonus.

If you are not recoil sensitive and don't want to be paying for a new barrel every 1000 to 1200 rounds, then you may want to stick with the bigger bores. If recoil is a problem for you, and-or you have the pocketbook to afford the frequent barrel switches.... then by all means take advantage of the smaller bores.....
Only here have I ever heard of the 243 being a barrel burner. I dont get it. I will refer you to post number 13 of this thread.

Please explain to me the reasoning behind this whole throat burning in a medium caliber burning a relatively small volume of powder compared to bore size.

So does a 308 WIN or 30-06 SPR burn out quicker than a 338 WIN or Lapua?

I would love for someone to explain to me why a 243 is so much of a barrel burner.

J.
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Old November 26, 2008, 08:58 AM   #20
j.chappell
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Swampy1,

I read your post again and saw that you stated smaller bullet weights, as far as the 243 what would you consider smaller bullet weights?

See I think it would stand to reason that a 155 or 168 would be a smaller weight in a 308 since it is capable of up to 180+ bullets in a standard twist rifle.

The 243 is only capable of bullets of up to 100-105 in a standard twist rifle so wouldnt the 90-105's be heavy for caliber?

J.
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Old November 26, 2008, 10:34 AM   #21
Swampy1
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Quote:
Only here have I ever heard of the 243 being a barrel burner. I dont get it. I will refer you to post number 13 of this thread.

Please explain to me the reasoning behind this whole throat burning in a medium caliber burning a relatively small volume of powder compared to bore size.
j chappell,

Earlier posts notwithstanding..... the accuracy requirements for 1k yard COMPETITIVE shooting are quite stringent.... quite a bit more than for the average shooters.

Whatever the causes.... and I don't pretend to know all the answers here, but I DO have daily and frequent contact with LOTS of guys who shoot Long Range games (See my tagline.), the smaller calibers do indeed tend to burn out the throat a lot sooner than the larger bores TO THE POINT THAT THE NEEDED 1K YARD COMPETITIVE ACCURACY STANDARD IS LOST.

Part of the reason for this is (As I stated previously.) the smaller calibers have to be driven pretty much as fast as you can get them in order to get full advantage of their ballistics.... otherwise, there would be no reason to choose them over the larger diameter bullets for 1000 yard shooting. Because of this (Needing max or near max charges for a given case volume.) the throat of the barrel takes a LOT of abuse and erodes out much faster than does a larger bore.

Now.... the non-competitive shooter or varmint hunter may never notice this erosion effect on accuracy until it reaches a point that the competitive target shooter would long since have sent this tube off to be replaced.... but have no doubt that it IS a noticeable and very well known effect among long range competition folk. If you have doubts or questions.... ask either the competitors who regularly shoot Long Range Highpower (LR is defined as 800 to 1000 yards.... 600 yards is Medium Range.), LR F-Class, Palma, and 1k BR or the gunsmiths who regularly get orders from their customers for barrels to fit the action they made for them.

Falling right in with this.... At the NRA 2008 MO State 600 yard Championships in October I was on the same point as Steve Satern, one of the up and coming Highpower, Palma, and BR barrel makers and LR gunsmiths out there. Steve was shooting a .243 built on a Tube Gun. Him being a barrel maker and me being a LR bullet maker we had lots to talk about.....

As he was shooting he was stating that he was close to the 1500 round mark on the barrel he was shooting, and that the X-count at 600 was dropping.... meaning that it was time to change barrels (NOTE: If the X-count was dropping at 600, then this barrel was probably already long past usability for competitive 1000 yard work.).

He also related that he heard complaints from a lot of shooters and customers that they really liked the idea of the 6mm chamberings, but did not want to replace barrels so often. His comment was basically to the effect of... "Accuracy costs money... How accurate can you afford to be"?? (See my previous comments about this.)

One last note: The comments above regarding the need for speed and barrel burnout with 6mm chamberings are PRIMARILY related to Long Range, 800 to 1000 yard competition.
For 600 yard competition there are indeed several smaller caliber cartridges that are the cats meow. The DIFFERENCE is that for 600 yard work not nearly as much initial velocity is needed for the 6mm projectiles to stay competitive with the larger diameters. Smaller cases with less powder and much less throat erosion is the norm for dedicated 600 yard work..... but again, it's all relative. The larger bores using smaller cases also get correspondingly longer throat life in the 600 game.

Best regards,
Swampy

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Old November 26, 2008, 11:09 AM   #22
BeCoole
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Quote:
I would so love to shoot out a barrel.
Start shooting NRA Highpower.
If you shoot enough to be competitive on even a club level, you will burn out an AR15 barrel every year. If you want to be competitive on a State level, you'll probably burn 2 every year.

You may get lucky and get a barrel that will last longer, but most of them are "toast" (our definition of toast, not a non-competitive shooters definition) after 3-4,000 rounds.
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Old November 26, 2008, 12:45 PM   #23
j.chappell
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Swampy1,

I see and understand what you are saying.

I was looking into case capacities and powder chardges and I see the point. I have just never noticed it in any of my rifles after many, many, rounds. Then again all of my shooting is informal, not timed, and not from custom built rifles.

I do have a few varmint rifles that shoot .3's and .4's and the occasional .2 when the planets align, lol, but not on a regular basis, and never a timed event.

I just doubt that in my shooting that I will see one of my .5" 243's lose that much accuracy that it will matter to me as I am not shooting competitions.

I believe that my thousand rounds and a competitors thousand rounds would effect a rifle differently as I have all the time in the world to fire mine when compared to a timed event. If I am wrong please correct me.

Also a increase from .5" to .7" is not going to upset me, you know. To a competitor that extra two inches is unexceptable put to your informal shooter not that big of a deal.

J.
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Old November 26, 2008, 04:56 PM   #24
Michael
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J.,
I shoot fast twist 22-250's with 80 grain Sierra matchkings at 3200 fps.
My hunting area allows me the opportunity of 7860 yard shots if I ever had the desire.

My standard for accuracy isn't a bullet comming out the end of the barrel, it's a 1400 yard kill shot on a coyote, or 10 consecutive "X" counts at a 1000 yard match.

We may be defining accuracy as a different standard for each of us. I only shoot 1000 yard every weekend, and hunt 1-2 times per week at distance. 400 yards and inward does not interest me and any rifle can achieve some acceptable degree of accuracy at that range. Step over the 400 yard line and your world changes quickly.

I can tell you from experience that the 22-250 I described is worth 800 round of match accuracy, and that my shooting partner gets about 1200-1250 match accuracy rounds from his .243 win barrels before they get put on his varmint rifle and held to a lesser 1.5 moa standard for work 400 yards and inward.
You asked for input from the guys that do it.
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Old November 26, 2008, 06:12 PM   #25
j.chappell
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Michael,

You are exactly right. As I stated in earlier posts, I do not intend to shoot competitions.

I have also stated that my accuracy and that of a competitor using a custom built gun will be vastly different. Also that my shooting will not likely cause as much damage due to the lack of a time constraint.

You may want to look at my last post as I stated all the differences in my desires and that of a competitor.

I understand the differences and just was asking for reasons earlier as to why I would be limited to 1200 rounds of accurate service. We are not in the same league by a long shot. I will be happy with whatever I do as you will only be happy with a win. I being a recreational shooter am not that worried about the smallest group I can print, just simply printing one consistently will be enough for me.

J.
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