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Old November 7, 2008, 09:25 AM   #101
NRAhab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong
The average officer will have at least 80 hours of training and will fire at least 1000 rounds, unless my info is in error. Not many CCW folks are going to get 80 hours of training or shoot more than 1000 rounds in their life, according to all the info I've found over the years. In fact, I'd suggest the norm for CCW holders is closer to 0 rounds a year than 50 rounds a year, and no training outside of what is required to get and keep their CCW.
The difficulty lies in establish what exactly defines the "average" CCW holder. I had to use a casual club level IDPA shooter as an example, because the point of reference for an "average" CCW holder is based entirely on the company that you or I keep.

The reason I say this is that our experience runs completely contrary - the "casual" shooters that I know fire about 50 to 100 rounds a month, and while they probably don't receive the 80 hours of training, they certainly do put more lead downrange. But again, that's been my personal experience, and it's also why it's extremely difficult to paint an accurate portrait of the "casual" shooter.
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Old November 7, 2008, 09:32 AM   #102
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Matt,

We haven't advanced since 1940? You still drive a model T.

We all know that pistol fire is wimpy compared to the good old thirty cal in the chest, so repeat shots are first and foremost a requirement in shooting attacking criminals.

This repeat, and rather fast repeat shots, are more consistent, and faster to apply with the G19 in two hands, locked up tight than the Applegate one hand crouch!

Nate45 had it right;

Sighted fire and the two handed grip should be the core principals.
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Old November 7, 2008, 09:56 AM   #103
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All people do not respond the same when confronted with life or death situations. The whole premise of your argument seems to be that all will fail and humans are incapable of keeping their wits about them and overcoming their natural instincts. I would counter by saying that the ability to do just that is what separates us from the animals and is a large part of what makes us human beings.
I agree with you about the role that panic plays in gun fights so when we speak of natural instincts, they are different in every person as some will freeze, some will flee, and some will fight. So, when I talk about natural instincts I speak of those that fight. As a aside note when I was in the 95th Training Battalion when the new recruits exited the cattle trailer for their first day of real basic training and met us these responses where highlighted and it gave us instant snap shot of each individual.

Quote:
Notice I don't say that one handed shooting, weak hand shooting, or threat focused shooting for that matter should be dismissed, or neglected, only that sighted, two handed fire should be the core principal. Why? Because in most situations in provides the means to make fast, accurate hits and also, you know as well as I do that when using threat focused shooting, the closer the pistol is to eye level the more accurate the shots are placed.
Unfortunately Nate the statistics say this is wrong and the research I have done say this is wrong. Two handed shooting is only one component of being a well rounded shooter and the fact that most shootings occur within five yards. The research I have done, which Glenn E. Meyer has had the opportunity to review, shows that we are not loosing the gunfights at distance where two handed shooting should be employed but at close quarter ranges, five yard and in, the two handed draw stroke does not work for various reasons.

Speaking of the zipper, it is one of my favorite drills.
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Old November 7, 2008, 01:20 PM   #104
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The difficulty lies in establish what exactly defines the "average" CCW holder. I had to use a casual club level IDPA shooter as an example, because the point of reference for an "average" CCW holder is based entirely on the company that you or I keep.
We'll disagree a bit. By definition I think we can say the average CCW holder is not some who regularly engages in competition, otherwise we'd have a lot more competitors. Let's toss in the fact that most gun owners are also not CCW holders and it gets worse, as I think we can logically assume that the more dedicated gunowners would be likely to get the CCW where possible. And I'm able to expand the company I keep by talking with other instructors over the years, learning form their experiences also. Most "enthusiasts" get and have a very distorted picture of other gunowners. I've been doing little mini-interviews with my CHL clients over the years, and the overwhelming response to "when was the last time you went shooting" is "4 years ago when I got my license last time." While we probably agree that it is ahrd to exactly define what is an average gunowner or CCW holder I don't think it difficult at all to say the average gunowner has less training and shoots fewer rounds than the Police do in recruit training.
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Old November 7, 2008, 01:36 PM   #105
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I am comfortable agreeing to that, although on the flip side I would say that even the most casual/average competitive shooter fires more rounds per year than your average police officer.
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Old November 7, 2008, 05:32 PM   #106
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although on the flip side I would say that even the most casual/average competitive shooter fires more rounds per year than your average police officer.
And you would get absolutely no disagreement from me on that point.
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Old November 7, 2008, 05:57 PM   #107
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No Brit..I drive a 2005 CRV.
Well, actually my wife does--I am still stuck with a 1993 Chevy Lumina.
But the core concepts of driving--steering wheel, brake pedal, gas pedal, mirrors, etc---are the same as with cars from days of yore.
And even today the core MECHANICS of driving remain unchanged from the 1920's
What makes you think that two handed shooting was not taught before, during and after WW2?
It was.
Nor do I agree that one can't be fast and accurate with one handed shooting.
In any case, if you want to GUNFIGHT a guy at 0-10 feet with two handed sighted shooting, then be my guest.

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Old November 7, 2008, 06:21 PM   #108
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"Nor do I agree that one can't be fast and accurate with one handed shooting"

Nor do I!
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Old November 7, 2008, 06:30 PM   #109
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In any case, if you want to GUNFIGHT a guy at 0-10 feet with two handed sighted shooting, then be my guest.
Lol now we are going to gunfight OK Corral style. I'm not gun fighting anyone. The word fight makes it sound like the other guy has a chance. Also thankfully most people who are accomplished with a handgun are not criminals. I'm also going to go out on a limb and suggest that if anyone who is well practiced with a gun is already holding theirs in their hand/s the odds of drawing from concealment and prevailing are slim and none, no matter what technique you use. If fact even against someone unskilled your best hope would be that if their attention was diverted to draw and fire multiple accurate rounds to the vital zone, because it has been proven over and over that the actual physical effects of handgun rounds on a determined adversary take time to have an effect and even the untrained only need to get lucky once.

As far as offense goes, if I personally was dead set on killing someone my 'ninja' technique would be to do it when they were least expecting it and unaware that I was anywhere around. All the 'gun fighting' practice in the world can't stop that.
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Old November 7, 2008, 07:01 PM   #110
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Yes Nate---it's a fight.
A fight in which you happen to have a gun.
Which means that there is more to winning the fight than just being able to shoot fast and accurately with two handed aimed fire.
Laugh at this all you want, but even a Mega Ninja Warrior as yourself can be taken by surprise.
Or will one day have to play catch up.
Which is likely due to your tendency to underestimate the opposition.

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Old November 7, 2008, 07:20 PM   #111
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Which means that there is more to winning the fight than just being able to shoot fast and accurately with two handed aimed fire.
I 100% agree with you, I have never once dissmised threat focused shooting or said that it was not a potentialy valuble tactic to learn.

All I'm saying is that, in my opinion, the foundation of hand gunnery should be two handed sighted fire and that thats what novices should be trained in basic shooting skills. Lets take the military and the service rifle for example. Do they or do they not teach basic marksmanship before they teach advanced techniques such as Reflexive Fire?

Quote:
Laugh at this all you want, but even a Mega Ninja Warrior as yourself can be taken by surprise.
Or will one day have to play catch up.
Two of the core principals of my 'mega ninja' defense system are a high level of awareness and avoiding trouble in the first place.

'In life you travel around many corners.'-nate the mega ninja.
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Old November 7, 2008, 09:18 PM   #112
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In any case, if you want to GUNFIGHT a guy at 0-10 feet with two handed sighted shooting, then be my guest.
And that is what retention/hip shooting like the 1/4 hip or speed rock or SouthNarcs retention is all about.
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Old November 7, 2008, 11:43 PM   #113
matthew temkin
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Actually Nate45, we pretty much agree.
I believe that threat focused skills should come only after the student has a good understanding of both two and one handed sighted shooting.
And from a variety of positions, including from behind cover.
Only then would I introduce the more advanced skills of point shooting.
As to application--since so many civilian encounters happen up close and personal, why not concentrate on skills best suited to these situations?
Such as one handed threat focused shooting from retention, close hip and all the way out to full extension?
Which was my whole point all along.
I also agree that a high level of awareness and avoiding trouble in the first place is very important.
Yet how many competitive events would I win by refusing to go into an area populated by "armed bad guys" during a match?

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Old November 7, 2008, 11:55 PM   #114
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Crime guns

There is no need to get excited over ways and means of deploying a concealed handgun in a criminal threat, the overwhelming way that is done is in no shots fired situations.

A threat is perceived as being imminent (sometimes in error!) CCW gun drawn, and pointed, words spoken (or not) threat legs it!

I am sure many readers on the Firing Line have done just that.

Some shoot outs are classic, and not always fair! A good friend of mine whilst in the RUC in Belfast (7 years RUC, after 15 in 42 Commando) was part of a foot patrol in a Hospital.

His squadie partner for the day was a not so young trooper, a panicky nurse told them two masked gunmen had robbed the post office (it was in the Hospital) Des was armed with a concealed PP Walther in .380, and a Sterling Sub Gun in 9mm.

His buddy for the day, with a Browning Hi Power, also in 9mm, they sent the nurse on her way, on hearing running boots, the Soldier stepped around a corner gun at eye level, fired two shots. Des said one died at the scene, the other a little later. Ammo; mil spec, hard ball that came in wee 64 round boxes, both wounds through and through.

A tiled wall and floor environment not sub gun territory. No challenge issued.

WHERE WE LIVE THERE ARE SHOOTINGS, THE GANG BANGERS SHOOT EACH OTHER, CRIMINALS DO HOME INVASIONS.

The only civilian use to defeat criminals was a slick drawn .45 Colt deployed by a robbery victim in a Sub Shop in South Florida, by a 72 year old retired Chopper Pilot he shot both young men who had revolvers in their hands, one DRT, the other survived. The victim had given up his wallet, and reacted to a push in the direction of the washroom.

Even with the huge amount of carry permits here in Florida, shootings by those CCW holders is a very rare event.

So teaching Zipper drills, and the like, interesting, not very practical in the historical deployment of guns, the better use of training time for CCW holders (IMHO) would be just a whole bunch of draw and fire, draw and no shots fired, at one cardboard image, 8ft away.
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