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Old November 1, 2008, 06:22 PM   #1
craigvh68
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I need guidance. please

I have ithaca 20 Gauge rifled barrel shotgun. I got bad advice and shot at least 50 rounds of rifled slugs through the barrel. Of course, I cleaned the barrel between various shoots. My problem is now I know I need Sabots. However, the accuracy isn't there when I shoot. Did I ruin the barrel? Are Sabots in rifled barrel more accurate than rifled in smoothbore? I am beginner in the shotgun area. Thanks to whoever throws some advice to me. I just found this website today. I am a fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old November 1, 2008, 06:26 PM   #2
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Um post the question just like you posted this one.

Or if you are seeking special advice or information. PM the guy you think could best answer your question after reading their other post.
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Old November 1, 2008, 06:29 PM   #3
craigvh68
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thanks

I am a little wet behind the ears here on this website. I will overcome it though.
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Old November 1, 2008, 07:27 PM   #4
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Some guns are accurate with some loads and dislike others. Get several different brands of sabot slugs and test them to see which shoots best.

Also be sure you are shooting from a steady position. It is hard to tell if the gun/ammo combination has a problem if your hold is wobbly.
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Old November 1, 2008, 07:45 PM   #5
craigvh68
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what about the barrel

Did I ruin the barrel? I shoot with steady reat. I will try other brand loads. I appreciate your feedback
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Old November 1, 2008, 10:39 PM   #6
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The only good way to ruin a rifled slug barrel is to shoot 00 Buck shot or bird shot through it. If you ONLY shot slugs, I don't see how you could of damaged it at all.
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Old November 1, 2008, 10:51 PM   #7
Scattergun Bob
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craigvh68

Why don't you bring this over to the shotgun forum, just copy and paste. I believe I know how to help, there are others there that are true slug shooting junkies.

I believe from what you said that you have 'smeared' the lands with lead and need to remove it. You can start with lead removal cloth and a button type 20 Ga cleaning jag. It will be a very boring process and DO NOT get any of the 'yellow stuff' on the finish of your barre, it will remove it. Back and forth 20 times, patch, new piece of removal cloth and try again, you will see the results.

Hope to see your name in on the shotgun side

Hope this helps, Good Luck and Be Safe
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Old November 2, 2008, 01:53 PM   #8
Majic
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Rifled slugs were made for rifled barrels. Why do you think you got bad info?
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Old November 2, 2008, 09:55 PM   #9
jrothWA
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as long as you clraned the barrel...

you should be okay.
If the slugs used were the foster type ther should be no problems with it.
The brenneke maybe all right as they have the slug with heavy base wad attached.
Your barrel is steel and a lead slug should not damage it.

Sabots are surrsounded by a plastic sheath that take the rifling and give spin
to the unit once drops away theslug retains the spinning motion.
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Old November 3, 2008, 12:23 PM   #10
zippy13
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sabot

"Sabots are surrounded by a plastic sheath that take the rifling and give spin to the unit once drops away the slug retains the spinning motion."
We have a newbie here, so I'm being a nit-picker:
It's the plastic sheath that's the sabot (with a silent t). It comes from the French word for shoe. The use of sabots goes back to muzzleloading cannons when a wooden, or metal, disk was was attached to the projectile. These days, sabot ammunition can be found in artillery and small arms -- in both smoothbore and rifled applications.

Various sabots and a 120mm Armor-Piercing, Fin-Stabilized, Discarding Sabot (APFSDS) tank round

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Old November 3, 2008, 03:10 PM   #11
T.A.Sharps
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You should be ok, the foster slugs you shot are lead, and the rifled barrel would cut into the soft lead, not the other way around, there are some full bore slugs that are meant to engage the rifling of your bore.

I would not worry if you had bad results with the first sabot slugs, you have to find the right brand and type that works the best in your shotgun. Then when you tested them all you will know.

Sabot slug shooting gets expensive in the beginning when you need to find the ammo it likes, I bought 7 boxes of Hornady H2k (about $70-$80) at only five rounds per box that gave me only 35 rounds. I figured I would sight it in with one ammo and test later, what the gun shop didn't tell me is that this ammo was discontinued for being so inaccurate, only I didn't find that out until I turned to hate my rifled shotgun for only getting 10"-13" groups at only 50yrds.

But after I tested different ammo I now get an average of 12" at 200yards.

And I know others that have got 1/2" at 100yards.
(All you shotgun shooters who swear a person can't do this, stow it.)

It will come together for you.

Just try to shoot it under the same conditions you would hunt in, and try to shoot it at least once a month year round, the more experience you have with it the better of a shot you will be.

Also, the 20ga would have a better accuracy potential that the 12ga shooting sabots.
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Old November 3, 2008, 06:42 PM   #12
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Rifled slugs were made for rifled barrels. Why do you think you got bad info?

No they're not. Rifled slugs are for smooth bore guns. The rifling on the slugs imparts spin to stabilize the projectile.

Sabot slugs are for rifles barrels.


Quote:
Did I ruin the barrel?
Check the owners manual. I've seen guns that are supposed to be OK for shooting rifled slugs. There is generally an admonition of some type in the manual.

Quote:
Are Sabots in rifled barrel more accurate than rifled in smoothbore?
Generally, yes and as range increases so does the accuracy difference. Specifically, it will depend on the exact combination of gun and ammo (just like any other gun). My gun shoots Remington Core_lokt Ultras VERY well but produces 14 inch groups with Winchester XP3s. My old Rem 870 smooth bore shot Winchester Super-X slugs better than anything else I ever tried. The only way to know is to try them and that gets rather pricey with sabot rounds.
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Old November 3, 2008, 08:12 PM   #13
T.A.Sharps
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
The rifling on the slugs imparts spin to stabilize the projectile.
Actually this is a common misconception, there is actually no spin imparted on a "rifled" slug, the slug shoots straight out the bore.

A rifled barreled shotgun will get way better accuracy than foster slugs from a smooth bore, you need to test different ammo though to find the ammo it shoots the best, it gets expensive, but once you have it you only need a box or two a season.

The sabot engages the rifling of the bore and tightens on the bullet spinning both as one. The spinning imparts gyroscopic stability on the bullet which is what gives a bullet its accuracy/stability in flight.

A smooth bore foster slug is more like a musket ball, but more accurate since it was designed to be weighted to the nose, and has a hallow base that expands to full bore under the pressure.

The "rifling", or grooves of the foster slug from what I heard is to reduce friction in bore.

I only learned all this about the foster slugs about a year ago myself on these forums. Everyone I have ever known always called them rifled slugs, and assumed it was because it puts a spin on it.

But, I found out through these forums, and extra research, that the assumption was just "Hill Billy Logic".
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Old November 3, 2008, 08:32 PM   #14
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If you have loaded the grooves with lead than you will need brushes to remove it. I do not know of a chemical that will release lead buildup like could be left. But other than some build up I don't reckon it is *ruined*. I wonder if you could load some "polishing" shells using walnut hull media to clean?
Some of the resident "shotgun nuts on patrol" may like to entertain or dismiss this hair brained redneck idea of mine...
Brent
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Old November 3, 2008, 08:39 PM   #15
T.A.Sharps
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The lead fouling can be removed with any gun bore cleaner, almost all of them are made for carbon and lead fouling.

Other than that just get a 12ga bore brush, jag, and a cleaning rod. This stuff you should have anyway.
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Old November 3, 2008, 08:44 PM   #16
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Actually this is a common misconception, there is actually no spin imparted on a "rifled" slug, the slug shoots straight out the bore.

It doesn't spin in the bore. It spins after it leaves the bore. There is no misconception, at least on my part. It only helps a little and sometimes not at all but that's the purpose of the rifling on the slug.
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Old November 3, 2008, 10:44 PM   #17
Scattergun Bob
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Dogs

try a lead removal cloth (kleen bore) to remove built up lead in a rifled barrel. it works just fine. Bob
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Old November 3, 2008, 10:46 PM   #18
T.A.Sharps
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I checked my ballistics book, I will sum up what it says about foster slugs (if you want to read it exactly, order the book, or check your book store to see if they have it in, its on pg.307):

A Foster slug's groves that are molded into it provides a very slight spin, but the accuracy gained from the amount of gyroscopic stability is very little.

Research by Winchester shows that the turn rate of a foster slug is 1 turn in 24 feet.

Slugs without the groves still hit nose first without tumbling, but the grooves do give better accuracy over a non-grooved slugs.


1 in 24ft
vs 1 in 24inches spin of a sabot round from a rifled barrel shotgun.
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Old November 3, 2008, 10:57 PM   #19
Scattergun Bob
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T.A.Sharps

I Believe you are right. I think Rifling on slugs was a IDEA that did not pan out. It has hung around because it is a slick marketing device. The only real value of rifled slugs is that the rifled skirt my be easier to pass thru tight bores.

I my opinion gentlemen, rifled slug accuracy is all about the forward weight distribution of the foster slug. It is a leap forward from the pumpkin balls(round ball) that was originaly loaded into slug loads.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Last edited by Scattergun Bob; November 4, 2008 at 03:59 AM.
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Old November 4, 2008, 12:40 PM   #20
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T.A.Sharps
A Foster slug's groves that are molded into it provides a very slight spin, but the accuracy gained from the amount of gyroscopic stability is very little.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
It only helps a little and sometimes not at all but that's the purpose of the rifling on the slug.


Given the virtually identical nature of our information, I think I'm OK on the understanding.
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