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Old October 20, 2008, 05:13 PM   #1
cchardwick
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Does the government keep track of which guns I buy?

I buy most of my guns new from Sportsman's warehouse. When they do a background check does the purchase of a gun go into some kind of database where they keep track of the guns you buy?
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Old October 20, 2008, 05:30 PM   #2
sevensixtytwo
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yes, that's what the serial numbers are essentially for.
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Old October 20, 2008, 05:52 PM   #3
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Technically, long gun purchases are not fed into a database on a national level. However, the FFL is required to keep a record of the purchase and that can be subpoenaed if there is a reason for the courts to want to know.

Many states allow sale of long guns without an FFL. No record is required, bu most people get a signaure anyway - in case the new owner does something that gets Johnny Law looking it records on a particular firearm....




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Old October 20, 2008, 06:21 PM   #4
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No, the federal government does not keep track of your guns purchased. But, as mentioned, FFL do keep a log and that could be reviewed by the feds if needed.
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Old October 20, 2008, 07:47 PM   #5
publius
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They don't have to, they make the dealers do it for them.
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Old October 20, 2008, 08:07 PM   #6
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It would be a yes if they suspect you of supplying arms for something naughty .
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Old October 20, 2008, 08:15 PM   #7
Jim Watson
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Current edition of the 4473 form indexes the background check to the sales record. They are gathering more and more information.
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Old October 20, 2008, 08:30 PM   #8
B. Lahey
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If you buy more than one handgun at once, the dealer fills out a multiple purchase form and you may speak to the ATF. Go on, ask me how I know...

It was fine, though. Good bunch of dudes. Very friendly, normal shooter-type guys. We ended up talking about random gun stuff for quite a while after they had determined that I was a gun-nerd and not a strawman.

I couldn't help it, the gunshop had a nice Tokarev and a Sig P6 in perfect condition. Got a heck of a deal by buying both.

Last edited by B. Lahey; October 21, 2008 at 02:11 AM. Reason: changed "will" to "may", apparently it varies
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Old October 20, 2008, 10:27 PM   #9
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It also depends which level of government you are referring to. Here in CT, the Dept. of Public Safety a.k.a. the State Police keep track of every gun purchase. Rifles, shotguns, and handguns all get recorded. When you buy a gun, any type, the dealer calls the State and gets a sales approval number from them. There is also another piece of paper that you have to fill out which is of questionable legality. Connecticut likes to be extra intrusive when at all possible. Bear in mind, it does not stop me from swapping and selling. Person to person sales do not require paperwork with long guns. When I sold my AR-15, I made a paper trail and sent the necessary information to the state because I did not want them coming to my door looking for an AR when they decide to ban them. I didn't need to have any paperwork involved in the transaction, but I chose to do so.
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Old October 20, 2008, 10:40 PM   #10
JayD976
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heres how the process worksfor long guns in NY:

you come in and fill out the ATF form we call the FBI and get either an approval, denied or delayed...if approved thats as far as it goes on a federal level (serial numbers of the gun get written onto the form post background check so no the fed government is not aware of the exact firearm you have purchased). The form is filed away for 10-20yrs based on state's laws.
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Old October 21, 2008, 12:05 AM   #11
King Ghidora
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You might want to ask about what the original warrant for the Mount Carmel grounds just outside of Waco, TX. The ATF does pay attention to certain details and especially complaints from nosey neighbors, UPS delivery drivers, etc.. Reports of automatic gunfire coming from the "compound" were investigated earlier and found to be coming from a gun that had a "Hellfire" device installed. The BATF took that as an indication that possibly many automatic weapons had been converted from semi-autos on the grounds at Mt. Carmel. And because a UPS driver had reported a package to Mt. Carmel contained weapons, inert grenades and black powder had come open revealing the contents. From there the BATF infiltrated the group with an agent who reported seeing over 150 guns and 8000 rounds of ammo. This caused the BATF to decide to plan and carry out operation "Showtime" which involved entering the compound to carry out a search warrant.

Apparently no one bothered to notice that Mt. Carmel was also a gun dealer operation where 150 guns and 8000 rounds were nothing exceptional. And of course black power is essential for muzzleloading weapons and souvenier grenades aren't uncommon. Plus lots of gun dealers sell the parts to make all sorts of things like grenades but that doesn't mean they are breaking the law. Remember too that the gun dealer laws were much less stringent back then.

The BATF also didn't bother arresting the leader, David Koresh, on the streets of Waco where he was seen daily. Instead they notified the media (who tipped off the members of the church) and the rest is horrid history.

No doubt the wacky Branch Davidians did plenty of things wrong including firing at BATF agents. But the BATF knew that group was a bunch of apocalyptic loonies just waiting for their day in the sun. The BATF obviously wanted a confrontation because it was budget time and they wanted it to appear that the nation was full of armed wackos just living for the day they got to shoot at law enforcement officers. Succeeding in creating that myth would have pumped a great deal of money into their budget. They wanted a shootout and it's still not known who fired the first shot.

The Davidians were known wackos. But Janet Reno and the liberals in charge wanted it to appear that religious groups were all fantatical nuts so that people looked at every corner church in America as a potential time bomb. Liberals don't much care for Christians because they have that whole moral code thing going on and as we all know the only code liberals live by is that there shouldn't be any moral codes against anything from child rape to child murder to murder of of the old and the sick and the depressed and anyone who just wanted to see what it's like to be dead. Witness the assisted suicide laws of Oregon plus the support for Dr. Death and his followers and partial birth abortion and even post birth abortion.

The bottom line is never assume they won't be looking at you some day. The liberals might well have total control over our government soon. If that happens bad things are sure to follow. Very bad things.
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Old October 21, 2008, 12:51 AM   #12
FyredUp
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Quote:
B. Lahey: If you buy more than one handgun at once, the dealer fills out a multiple purchase form and you will speak to the ATF. Go on, ask me how I know...

It was fine, though. Good bunch of dudes. Very friendly, normal shooter-type guys. We ended up talking about random gun stuff for quite a while after they had determined that I was a gun-nerd and not a strawman.

I couldn't help it, the gunshop had a nice Tokarev and a Sig P6 in perfect condition. Got a heck of a deal by buying both.
Um, sorry, No. Last December I bought 2 handguns, a 1911A1 and a Beretta Neos at the same time. The paperwork was filled out. I went back 2 days later and picked them up and as of yet no conversation with the ATF.

Makes me wonder if there was a particular reason your name was flagged by the Feds. Do you purchase a lot of guns? Neighbors complained? Because your buying 2 handguns thing simply doesn't ring true in my case.
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Old October 21, 2008, 01:23 AM   #13
B. Lahey
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I live just outside of Chicago, where lots of straw purchasing apparently takes place. They talked to me as a part of an ongoing operation to check out multiple purchasers.

Believe it or don't, I don't really care. It's true.
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Old October 21, 2008, 02:15 AM   #14
bottom rung
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Getting flagged is always an issue for some. Criminals with the same names or last names do hold up the gun buying process of many people.
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Old October 21, 2008, 02:35 AM   #15
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What about the Patriot Act?

We don't even really know what that does or doesn't cover do we? These people do not really care about "Liberal" or "Conservative", we are all just somebody to be watched, they are the watchers. They are keeping track of our purchases, by "they" I mean the Republicratic Oligarchy. So yes, I think they are recording our gun purchases somewhere.
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Old October 21, 2008, 06:56 AM   #16
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I'm certainly not paranoid, but you really have to think about several things here... huge computers capable of cross referencing all kinds of data, government workers trying to justify thier jobs, & the fact that we (our government ) is actively looking for terrorists...

I'd suspect that all your gun purchases are recorded on some data base somewhere, random sweeps on internet & forum "buzz words" also ends up on a data base, any particular rifle or hand gun training you do, again, recorded on a data base somewhere, traveling ??? any partricular destinations probably puts you on a data base somewhere... heck, after 9-11, even pilot training, heavy equipment operators, etc. etc. probably puts you on a data base somewhere

the only issue you would have, is if you show up on too many "lists"... they have bigger fish to fry, than joe average gun buyer... but if you attended a couple rifle, handgun or combat training classes, buy lots of guns, & find yourself on a few lists that the average enthusiast doesn't, I'm betting you get added to a shorter list somewhere...
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Old October 21, 2008, 07:22 AM   #17
Billy Sparks
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The only problem with a huge database of all of you gun purchases is how does it get from the 4473 to the database? The 4473's stay with the FFL holder even if they didn't who is going to enter these thousands of 4473's?
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Old October 21, 2008, 07:39 AM   #18
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We don't even really know what that does or doesn't cover do we?
Oh, for crying out loud, just look it up - http://epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html.
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Old October 21, 2008, 08:20 AM   #19
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big brother watches every step you take
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Old October 21, 2008, 10:37 AM   #20
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Quote:
Current edition of the 4473 form indexes the background check to the sales record. They are gathering more and more information.
Are you sure about that? I understood that the only record was officially Form 4473 which is held by the dealer and is available to law enforcement (BATF) if the need is present. But it is a physical visit to the gun shop to inspect the books. Anyone have an BATFE friends who you might be able to ask specifically about their maintaining a database????

Quote:
The only problem with a huge database of all of you gun purchases is how does it get from the 4473 to the database? The 4473's stay with the FFL holder even if they didn't who is going to enter these thousands of 4473's?
I don't know if this is the case YET. But the way would get into such a database is via the NICs check where the model, caliber, serial number are supplied in the check. Dealers now complete a computer form which includes all relevant information and that is transmitted to the FBI for their instant background check. The information is in essence already in digital form now. There is also the call in type of NICs check such as you might see at gunshows.

Quote:
If you buy more than one handgun at once, the dealer fills out a multiple purchase form and you will speak to the ATF.
Not from my experience in terms of speaking to a BATF agent. I also think some of the dealers who I have purchased multiple firearms from (who know me) would have mentioned that an inquiry was made with regard to any of my purchases.
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Old October 21, 2008, 11:05 AM   #21
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jsmaye

That is the original "USA Patriot Act" of 2001, they are now expanding the definitions of what they can & can't do and don't feel that we need to know about it. Just ask the fourth branch of government (Cheneyecutive?).
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Old October 21, 2008, 02:43 PM   #22
B. Lahey
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Not from my experience in terms of speaking to a BATF agent. I also think some of the dealers who I have purchased multiple firearms from (who know me) would have mentioned that an inquiry was made with regard to any of my purchases.
It's not for multiple firearms, they only have to fill out a multiple purchase form for multiple handgun purchases within five business days.

Just because you never heard of it does not mean it doesn't exist.

Here it is, see for yourself. BATFE form 3310.4 "Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols or Revolvers":
http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/pdfs/f33104.pdf
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Old October 21, 2008, 09:45 PM   #23
hockeysew
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In Colorado here is the way it works cchardwick-
When the information to CBI is input the dealer has to enter if it is a long gun, handgun or both.
Like stated before the only time the ATF is directly notified is in the case of multiple handgun purchases, which the dealer must report immediately to the ATF via form #3310.4 "Report of Sale of Multiple Handguns"(Meaning more than 1 handgun in 5 Business days).
Unless there is cause to track a certain serial # the dealer retains all records. They must do so as long as they remain in business. If they go out of business they must forward all records of transactions to the ATF within 30 days of business closure.
In the case of a certain serial # and description of firearm ATF will generate a trace which starts at the importer/manufacture and rolls downhill to the end purchaser.


Quote:
I live just outside of Chicago, where lots of straw purchasing apparently takes place. They talked to me as a part of an ongoing operation to check out multiple purchasers.
Hmmm, ya think an Illinois Senator had anything to do with mandating such a follow up??
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Old October 21, 2008, 10:52 PM   #24
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Basically, the Feds have records of your firearms purchases if you have bought from a store or FTF in some states. Here, they haven't clamped down and I can still buy/sell outside of a gun show or privately (FTF). God Bless America!

In the same vein, I love untraceable weapons. It really looks like the Obama engine is going to hit the tracks and I'm more worried than I have been in my entire life. Having untraceable is really good IMHO.
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Old October 21, 2008, 11:00 PM   #25
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When I was living in Arizona one of my best friends was a scum bag,, I mean a Lawyer. He had done several favors for me or my family and one day visiting him he told me about a Pro Bono he was required to do for a really BAD guy. The guy threatened my friend with his life if he didn't get him off the hook.
I hadn't been able to do a lot to thank my friend so I bought a 38 Special Snubbie and gave it to him as agift for his personal protection.
He later went to a place called Micronesia out in the South Pacific as their Attorney General. Somewhere along the line the Police confiscated the pistol from him saying NO ONE is allowed a pistol.
I don't remember how long later any more, but I got a call from the BATFE wanting to know the history of the gun. I explained the story and they seemed satisfied. I asked the fellow from the BATFE what happened to the gun. He said it was used in an armed robbery here in the States.
So now I guess the Cheif of Police in that dinky little island is also a crook and a Black Market gun dealer. Nevertheless BATFE found me. I somehow wonder how they did it if they don't have any records....
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