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Old September 16, 2008, 12:31 AM   #26
Sweatnbullets
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There no subsitute for training, using established fundamentals.
The "established fundamentals" of point shooting have been "combat proven" for a very long time. They only fell out of favor due to leather slapping games in Big Bear in the 1950's.

Properly structured FOF will prove the need for both sighted and point shooting skill sets. I have trained with some of the most highly trained Modern Technique instructors in the business, once we went into FOF they point shot. They know they did and I know they did, because their guns were at least a couple of inches below their line of sight.

Training to get to your sights does not mean that you can get to your sights when the action is fast, close, and you are behind in the reactionary curve.

It is all situationally dependent.

Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything."
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Old September 16, 2008, 11:30 AM   #27
David Armstrong
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He dosnt point, he uses the front sight. It dosnt appear to slow him down.
He's also spent decades learning to do that, so it probably isn't too applicable to the more typical shooter.

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Training to get to your sights does not mean that you can get to your sights when the action is fast, close, and you are behind in the reactionary curve.
And even if you can get to the sights it doesn't mean you will be able to use them. Lots of interesting work out there on physical reactions under stress and so on.
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Old September 16, 2008, 01:49 PM   #28
SGT-MILLER
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This is always a very interesting topic, because it has been going on for ages.

Point shooting is not an accurate means of shooting and will never replace using your sights, but what usually happens (80% of the time) is the person involved in the firefight will begin to point shoot. I believe this happens because when we get into that "life or death" situation, most of our fine-tuned motor reflexes will not work as well. Instead of trying to take the time and concentration to establish a good sight picture, we will want to "speed up" and engage/eliminate the treat as quick as possible. This is normal.

Because of that, I believe it would be a good idea to practice point shooting as much as possible. We all can aim a rifle/pistol instinctively to a certain point. If you incorporate some point-shooting training into your normal training regimen, it can only help you become more familiar with your firearm, and give you a better chance of defending if it comes to that.

Go to YouTube and type in "Iraq Firefights". Scroll down and watch all the different videos. You'll see that most of the soldier/marines/airmen doing the shooting are point shooting. The reason I say this is you cannot, repeat cannot maintain a proper sight picture when shooting a rifle or pistol in a very rapid manner (i.e. 2-4 rounds a second) unless you devote years and years to training (most of us cannot do this).

Good thread, though. I think this is a very important topic to discuss.
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Old September 16, 2008, 03:43 PM   #29
Saab1911
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Originally Posted by SGT-Miller
Point shooting is not an accurate means of shooting and will never replace using your sights, but what usually happens (80% of the time) is the person involved in the firefight will begin to point shoot. I believe this happens because when we get into that "life or death" situation, most of our fine-tuned motor reflexes will not work as well. Instead of trying to take the time and concentration to establish a good sight picture, we will want to "speed up" and engage/eliminate the treat as quick as possible. This is normal.
Isn't this why those involved in fire fights blaze away at one another
from 3 yards away and miss?

It is possible to train well enough that one will be able to aim during life
and death situations. For example Andrew Jackson was in a duel with
a man who was known to be a great shot. Andrew Jackson cheated and
wore a moo-moo to the duel. He was shot first, the bullet nicked his heart.
Jackson kept his composure and killed the other guy.

And how important is competition (such as IDPA) in getting used to high
stress situations?

I believe point shooting can be valuable but only if you practice it a lot.
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Old September 16, 2008, 03:54 PM   #30
matthew temkin
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How many of those blazing away with "point shooting" have actually been taught how to do it properly?
If the answer is very few then it is not point shooting which is to blame but rather unrealistic training which fails to utilize the body's natural reaction to life or death combat.
For the record point shooting is very accurate and can be learned withing an hour or so, if not minutes
Anyone who wishes to venture here next week will receive a free how to lesson from me and from 7677.
http://www.mlefiaa.org/2008_CONFEREN..._REG_PAGE.html
Or how about joining us for this:
http://northeastshooters.com/vbullet...ad.php?t=40447
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Old September 16, 2008, 04:07 PM   #31
SGT-MILLER
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Like I said in my last post, you can train to aim well in high stress, but most people do not have the resources, or the discipline to do so. I think the importance of learning to point shoot decently will fill this gap in competence.

Most self-defense encounters are at very short distances (25 yards or less). At these distances, you can use point shooting to hit your target. I'm not talking about putting 5 rounds into a .5 inch hole, but I'm talking about enough accuracy to hit center of mass of a human sized target.

Statistics would confirm that most people (including highly trained military) do not use their sights during the first crucial moments of an engagement. This is one of the things that the US military is always trying to overcome. Point shooting is something that requires a little less fine motor skills, and is something that can be used at reasonable ranges.

I will also say that training to properly use sights is very, very, very important and should not be replaced by point shooting for any reason. Just train both ways, instead.

All in all, we all have out own opinions, but I say why not learn other shooting techniques? It will only help develop your skills, and will increase your knowledge of the shooting world in general.
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Old September 16, 2008, 04:11 PM   #32
matthew temkin
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SGT-Miller
No one who I have researched says that point shooting is designed to replace aimed fire.
It is meant to complement it.
However, quite a few have stated that sights should always be used--Paul Howe, in fact, has written that sights should be used from 0-300 yards.
Here is a link to my home study course for those who wish to explore this topic on their own.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=391040
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Old September 16, 2008, 04:27 PM   #33
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Thanks for the link.
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Old September 16, 2008, 05:11 PM   #34
matthew temkin
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Roger that.
Any questions feel free to give me a shout.
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Old September 17, 2008, 02:59 PM   #35
David Armstrong
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It is possible to train well enough that one will be able to aim during life and death situations.
It is possible to train well enough to run a mile in under 4 minutes, and other interesting feats. The problem, however, is that few have the time, resources, or drive to train to such a level. Pointing out that something can be done after an unusually high level of training is not much support for doing something at the more normal levels.
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Old September 17, 2008, 05:10 PM   #36
Deaf Smith
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It is possible to train well enough that one will be able to aim during life and death situations.
Been done many a times. Trainers from Cooper to Farnam to Taylor to Clint Smith to Paul Howe to... well let's just say they have had many a student that did use their sights and win.

Always keep in mind, no matter how hard you train, how well you train, or whatever you train in.... nothing is a 100 percent guarantee. You might fall appart, or stand fast, or something in between. The training gives you skills and confidence, and many a time that combination pulls one through.
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