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Old August 19, 2008, 02:39 PM   #1
Rampant_Colt
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HEAVY Fouling With Rainier Plated ??

I shot around 125 rounds of .44 Mag Rainier 240gr Plated hollowpoint reloads from my blued Taurus M44 revolver this weekend and ended up having to use my Lewis Lead Remover to physically remove the HEAVY copper/lead fouling from the forcing cone and adjacent rifling..! It took forever to clean the damn thing!

While i was shooting, i observed a flake of lead/copper that appeared to fall from the forcing cone. That's when i noticed the HEAVY forcing cone fouling and stopped shooting it.


Has this type of heavy fouling happened to anyone else here? It seems kind of excessive for only a bit over 100 rounds.. Perhaps they need to be sized smaller?
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Old August 19, 2008, 02:46 PM   #2
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What was your powder and charge weight, and how were the bullets crimped?

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Old August 19, 2008, 03:09 PM   #3
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All the lighter copper plating seem to crack and flake under the deformation of the bullet entering a forcing cone. The problem is exacerbated by having any sort of constriction in the barrel or throat. Those are common in revolver barrels where they screw into the frame, and have to be removed either by hand lapping or by firelapping to minimize the distortion of the bullet and the cutting effect of gas blowby, which can tear the plating off, too. You also want to be sure your chamber throats are not narrower than any part of the barrel. That's another source of trouble and just about guarantees inaccuracy and also worsens the plating problem. You can get the cylinder chambers reamed at cylindersmith.com to clear that up.

I would consider improving your bullet lubrication by tumbling the bullets in Lee Liquid Alox right over top of the lube they come with. That has solved problems for a lot of folks. Firelapping removes bore roughness which also decreases fouling substantially. But if you are going to try it and are also going to try getting your cylinders reamed, do the firelapping first so it doesn't affect the final chamber throat dimensions.
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Old August 19, 2008, 03:09 PM   #4
Rampant_Colt
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240gr Rainier PHP
12.4 grains of IMR 800X
Win WLP primer
loaded/crimped using Lee carbide handgun dies

ETA - thanks, unclenick!
the top [not the flutes] of the cylinders showed signs of excessive flame-cutting
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Old August 19, 2008, 04:01 PM   #5
D. Manley
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Quote:
240gr Rainier PHP
12.4 grains of IMR 800X
Win WLP primer
May be a little hot for the Rainier plated. Rainier says stay under 1200 FPS and based on my data, I'd think your load is pushing the line if not over it.
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Old August 19, 2008, 04:09 PM   #6
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If the cylinders have biased cutting, hold the revolver up to a light sideways and see if the barrel/cylinder gap is uneven and whether you are seeing gas cutting in the top strap of the frame just above the cylinders? Excessive rounding of the cylinder face can cause that situation. It would suggest the cylinder may need to be replaced? You might be able to send the cylinder by itself to factory service for inspection and replacement under warranty? If they'll let you do that, it would save the high cost of shipping a whole gun and you might be able to request reamed cylinders directly from them?
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Old August 19, 2008, 04:23 PM   #7
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Yikes! Only 1200 fps?
I was also shooting these from my 18" Ruger 77/44 carbine without issue..

These loads were REALLY spittin' flame from the Taurus cylinder gap and porting.

So it's likely a combination of having too tight of a crimp, tight forcing cone, and hot-loaded cartridges that resulted in the excessive build-up of copper/lead flash.?

I test-fired around 25 of these on paper from the Taurus at the local range before heading out to eliminate any targets of opportunity, like varmints, and then later on to break things & blow stuff up on my friend's property using these loads. [they make a mess out of various fruits and veggies! LoL] - they weren't keyholing or acting strange on paper

I'll perform a visual inspection on the cylinder/barrel later on and see what's up
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Old August 19, 2008, 04:32 PM   #8
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You'll have noticed the rifle has no barrel/cylinder gap. The bullet may go through the rifle without loosing half its copper just because it doesn't have gas escaping through such a gap cutting plating loose on its base. Rifles can also usually tolerate more absolute pressure.

Strong crimps are necessary in the revolver to keep the recoil from backing bullets out in the cylinder. You don't want to give that up. Getting a cylinder reamed to maximum chamber dimensions is a standard revolver smith's accurizing step. You also want, with the gun empty to look down the bore and see that the chambers center well at the back of the barrel when the cylinder advances and locks in place.
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Old August 19, 2008, 10:08 PM   #9
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Cylinder alignment

Speaking of alignment, I once had a revolver with a cylinder pawl that was mis-shaped. It aligned the chambers for proper lock-up for the first 2 shots. But, when the weight of 3 bullets on one side was not off-set by the weight of any bullets on the other side, it did not push the cylinder quite far enough to have the locking part (name?) drop into the notch on the cylinder. Firing in that condition stripped parts of the jackets off Hornady cup-and-core type bullets, and I am sure it would do worse on plating. The only way to check for that is to put bullets (NOT loaded cartridges in 1,2, and then 3 chambers and watch the cylinder lock-up or not as the gun is repeatedly cocked and uncocked.

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Old August 19, 2008, 11:02 PM   #10
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I had the same trouble with Rainier plated in .357 mag. I was roll crimping to much and cutting the thin plating. I found a taper crimp die at a gun show for $5 and use that now I was trying to keep these loads under 1,100 fps so I think my problem was to much roll crimp on a non-cannelured bullet.
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Old August 27, 2008, 08:49 PM   #11
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www.brownells.com deburring tool for forcing cone. Part number 080-623-000AA Could be something to think about, anyway. It also can debur the rim end of the cylinder to make it easier to reload. If it spits lead as well, but not as bad, this might be a consideration. When it catches a little off a pure lead bullet, it will just spit a little, but the copper will bunch up and cause serious fouling.
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Old August 30, 2008, 10:33 AM   #12
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have some shoot some

Might suggest 2400 for high velocity.
Vary crimp.


Does a bullet slip easily through the chamber mouth? With difficulty?

Gun woes, but maybe 800X is helping.....
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Old August 30, 2008, 10:40 AM   #13
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Rainiers by the pallet

I have loaded a 'few' in 9x19, 9x21, 38 Super, 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 40 S&W, 400 CorBon, 10mm, 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 45 ACP, and 45 Colt.
I have driven some over 1500fps; I have loaded them for Glocks, and revolvers, and everything in between.

Good bullets.

They can have their idiosyncrasies, but still good.
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