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Old August 26, 2008, 07:20 PM   #101
EastSideRich
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Quote:
So, then why does one need shots for the shotgun? Better yet, why can't
I just go to a gun store with a tape recorder and record the sound of a
pump action shotgun being racked and when there's a perp in my house
I can play back that fearsome sound from ten different speakers
all over the house. The perp will #1, #2 and run for the nearest exit thinking
that there are ten different shotguns in the house.
Man, this thread just goes on and on and on; the "arguments" against are kinda silly.
No one is advocating using this (a sound) as your sole means of defending yourself. I think people aren't really thinking rationally here. -I can already hear people typing : Crackheads, people hopped up on drugs blah blah blah; I'll come back to that.

Quote:
The sound or a racking shotgun tells an aggressor that you're so far behind the curve that you only just then decided that the gun should actually be loaded.
For real? Do you think theres people out there who would say "Hey, they just now loaded their shotgun; I'm going into attack mode because they obviously aren't serious." ? Even if they do think that, now you do have a loaded shotgun; if you need to pull the trigger it is ready.

Quote:
Why do people think that crack-heads think logically? And why do people think
everybody knows the sound of a shotgun being racked or how effective a shotgun
weapon can be at close range?
C'mon; That is probably one of the most recognizable sounds I can think of. Who doesn't know what a shotgun can do? Even if it isn't recognized as a shotgun, they'll know it's a gun of some sort. This argument is almost as good as saying "Oh yeah, well what if the guy is deaf ?"
As far as crackheads and the like, the odds of coming up against someone who is so out of their mind on something they don't recognize the threat to their wellbeing, don't care, or think they're invincible you have to admit is reeeeal slim. I would bet the vast majority of people who break into houses don't get that high beforehand. Most breaking and entering is probably done by someone who is high, but not completely out of their mind. If you are that out of it, why would you break into a house? You are in no condition to steal stuff effectively. That aside, I've spent enough time around drugs and drug users to know even when you're really <messed - edited> up, you still don't want to get shot.

So what if the guy smoked a bunch of meth, pcp and that weed dipped in embalming fluid (which I believe is a misnomer, it's really just pcp) and is in a murderous rage and also has a machine gun and is just waiting for the first sign of movement so he can blast away?
Yeah, I guess you would have just given away your position and would now be gunned down before you could do anything, all because you tried to "intimidate him into submission" just by racking your shotgun. OK

Unless they are there specifically to kill you, an intruder is probably going to run for the nearest exit after realizing they are about to get shot at with anything, much less with a shotgun.
Even if they're there just to hurt someone, I'm betting they're out the door as fast as possible after that sound.

This "tactic" really just boils down to if one would rather at least have the possibility of having the intruder leave without a real confrontation (thus not having to deal with the legal ramifications of having killed someone, not to mention having having to clean someones blood and other stuff that was inside them off their carpet, walls and furniture), or if they would rather just shoot and then deal with the results.
I don't think anyone would really try to use this as their ultimate means of self defense - but it may save you from having to kill someone in your house.

While it may (I think probably would) get you out of a situation without having to shoot (and it might not, so don't use a tape recorder)
It is almost certainly not going to cause bullets to start flying your way due to giving away your position.


Quote:
A perp that will grovel at the mere
sound of a shotgun being racked probably can be chased off by a poodle.
How can you even respond to this without putting the little rolling-eyes smiley guy?

EDIT: on second thought I'm not sure how you meant this. You are probably actually right, but I get the feeling it's for a different reason. I bet most burglars would run as soon as any dog, be it a doberman or a chihuahua, alerted the homeowner to their presence.
On the other hand, if you meant that anyone who would "grovel at the mere sound of a shotgun being racked" is a big <coward - edited>, then I stand by my eye roll.

As far as Wildebees situation - man I feel for ya; You live in a completely different world than those of us in the US. I hope the stuff which you speak of never happens to you. South Africa is one of the places on my "You couldn't pay me enough to move there" list.

Last edited by pax; August 27, 2008 at 10:27 AM. Reason: Cuss words. Please do not try to get around the filters. Thx.
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Old August 27, 2008, 04:20 AM   #102
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Threegun wrote:

Quote:
I can't help but wonder just why you object to employing a tactic (under certain circumstances of course) which could possibly end the attack and eliminate the need to kill someone?
I for one would not downgrade a tactic likely to prevent a death, but you assume that the almighty racking sound would automatically de-escalate the situation without violence. There is too much of a chance for things to go wrong and end up dead as it is, why add more by intentionally adding a nonsense chance for mechanical failure to "hollywood" someone? What if the intruder was only intent on robbery, and now he knows you have a loaded gun, and will now try his hardest to kill you before you kill him? What if your hollywood shotgun rack does cause a mechanical malfunction? Why add another element of risk to a scenario, no matter how negligible you feel it is?
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Old August 27, 2008, 06:39 AM   #103
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You would rack only if you are willing and legally authorized to use the gun.
We were disusing the scenario of an intruder already in your home and now trying to enter your bedroom were you have held up. You have already committed to fire once the door is breeched. Willing and legal are pretty much covered. Why not give, if the circumstances allow, a warning to the BG? You David are huge on doing whatever you can to avoid shooting so I ask you in this situation why not?

Quote:
I for one would not downgrade a tactic likely to prevent a death, but you assume that the almighty racking sound would automatically de-escalate the situation without violence. There is too much of a chance for things to go wrong and end up dead as it is, why add more by intentionally adding a nonsense chance for mechanical failure to "hollywood" someone? What if the intruder was only intent on robbery, and now he knows you have a loaded gun, and will now try his hardest to kill you before you kill him? What if your hollywood shotgun rack does cause a mechanical malfunction? Why add another element of risk to a scenario, no matter how negligible you feel it is?
Derius, I didn't assume they would stop the attack. I said it could possibly end the attack just as it did for me and my cousin. The mere sound of my Mini 14 racking (from inside the house no less) sent 2 guys running. If they had breeched the door I would have fired until they stopped. The noise or the BG's knowing I was armed with something nasty ended the attack.

Mechanical failure is always possible but I have never had a problem with my pump shotgun to raise a concern.

"Hollywood" someone? I'm not talking about racking the slide in front of the bad guy. Once they can see the weapon there is no need for noise. They will either run or fight or freeze. That choice determines the next action........either shoot or don't shoot.

My personal experience suggests that the BG will stop the attack. In the limited times I would even conceder doing it the BG would still be at a great disadvantage. You seem to think that the BG is going to be a trained swat team member which if he is and alone he is still in serious danger facing down a shotgun armed homeowner hiding somewhere behind door number 3 in the dark and behind cover. In the real world he will probably be a drug addicted thug who will run at the sound of the shotguns action. If he continues through the door he will be shot without knowing were the shot came from. The only thing that changed is he had a warning not to continue and I had one less shell to fight with.

BTW If I allow the intruder to enter my room before attempting to fire I also face increased risk.......gun could still malf, ammo could be bad etc.
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Old August 27, 2008, 09:29 AM   #104
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If that is true there is something wrong with either your shotgun, your ammunition, or your method of manipulating the gun. Hangups during chambering should be a very unusual rarity.
After thousands of rounds shooting sporting clays and five stand I have encountered many hangups. While the percentage is low the reality of a FTF exists and therefore cannot be discounted.
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Old August 27, 2008, 09:59 AM   #105
Glenn E. Meyer
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The greatest chance of racking failure probably is operator error. That is probably increased by stress as we know in every domain of human performance. It can be mitigated by training and practice under appropriate stress. David is well known to wield a wicked shotgun.

On the other hand, even the best fall to stress. Even top level competitors step up to line and futz it up.

As far as sound effects - I prefer:

Yoohoo, I have a gun and I've called the police.

As compared to:

Yoohoo, I'm racking my gun now and unloading it a touch.

BG - what did you say - I can't hear. Could you do that again?

OK - rack, rack.

Racking a chambered gun to make a sound as a tactic - love it.

That's why some nice FOF training that entails actual interaction with folks is an added nuance to sheer competition with no such interaction and a focus on gun mechanics as compared to the interactive gestalt.

This thread will never die!
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Old August 27, 2008, 10:02 AM   #106
David Armstrong
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You David are huge on doing whatever you can to avoid shooting so I ask you in this situation why not?
Umm, if you'll go back and check, that is what I am advocating. I do not advocate threatening deadly force when deadly force is not authorized by law.
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Old August 27, 2008, 10:29 AM   #107
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Pretty good chance that racking the shotgun would frighten an intruder.

What the intruder might do as a result of being frightened is anybody's guess.

Never bluff.

(And if you typically store the shotgun 'cruiser ready,' racking the shotgun is a necessary prelude to doing what needs to be done.)

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Old August 27, 2008, 10:56 AM   #108
David Armstrong
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After thousands of rounds shooting sporting clays and five stand I have encountered many hangups. While the percentage is low the reality of a FTF exists and therefore cannot be discounted.
Nothing can be discounted, true. But if one is developing a standard technique based on a malfunction, I would submit that the problem behind the malfunction should be addressed. Fighting weapons should be as reliable as possible. My 870 is fairly stock, and with over several thousand rounds of fighting-type ammo it has had one feeding problem over the years. My Beretta 1201 much the same. It did develop a glitch, but went right back to the factory for repair.
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Old August 27, 2008, 10:58 AM   #109
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Yoohoo, I'm racking my gun now and unloading it a touch.
Glenn...do you keep a round in the chamber and a full magazine in your shotgun while it is awaiting troubles?
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Old August 27, 2008, 11:27 AM   #110
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I guess I'm just a worry wort. I keep all firearms that are out of the safe topped off and ready for use with the fewest possibly steps required. The exceptions are firearms being transported to the range. I fear that I would give the BG no warning and simply attempt to remove his head or a large portion of his torso. But that's just me.
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Old August 27, 2008, 11:39 AM   #111
Glenn E. Meyer
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My go to 'home/zombie gun' is my AR, David. With a 20 round mag of Hornaday Tap. The shotgun is in the closet unloaded. The AR isn't chambered as the first gun for quick defense is a Glock. If the situation warrants, I retrieve the AR and chamber it.

If I have to chamber the AR, I will yell - Yoohoo - at the miscreant.

Not wanting to start the great AR vs. shotgun debate. I would be perfectly happy to have the shotgun as the home long gun but prefer the AR.

BTW, in Karl Rehn's AT class, we practiced hunkering down and the strong verbal challenge. Didn't really say Yoohoo.

We did a version of what Shawn as posted - I have a gun, police called - get out of house. Over and over with the last phrase with the phone off the hook.

That assumes we had time for all that, having heard a BG in the house.

Interestingly, some folks who decided to 'clear' - got ambushed and knocked on their butt.
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Old August 27, 2008, 12:09 PM   #112
David Armstrong
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Not wanting to start the great AR vs. shotgun debate.
If you do, I'll start the 9mm vs .45 debate again<G>! But I think we've cleared up a point. If the chamber is already empty on the shotgun, you do not lose a round by racking the slide (or chambering a round from the magazine with the AR, etc.).
Quote:
BTW, in Karl Rehn's AT class, we practiced hunkering down and the strong verbal challenge.
No disagreement. Anything to defuse the situation is good, IMO, whether that be verbal challenge, rack the shotgun, unmuzzle Fifi the Barking Beast, or whatever.
Quote:
Interestingly, some folks who decided to 'clear' - got ambushed and knocked on their butt.
IME, almost every time a single operator goes on a clearing run they lose if the BG wants to take them out.
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Old August 27, 2008, 04:56 PM   #113
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Glenn, An AR-15/Glock man. Never would have figured it. I figured you for a side by side shotty and a single action army LOL.

DA, If you knew someone has entered your home and was now attempting to enter your bedroom would you re rack the slide if the verbal command, get the heck out I'm armed, failed?

I'm assuming that you aren't going to wait until the bad guy gets to your room to charge the shotgun.
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Old August 27, 2008, 08:26 PM   #114
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As far as crackheads and the like, the odds of coming up against someone who is so out of their mind on something they don't recognize the threat to their wellbeing, don't care, or think they're invincible you have to admit is reeeeal slim.
I'm sure that depends on location. In the inner cities, I'd say those chances are better than even.
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Old August 28, 2008, 04:40 AM   #115
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It doesn't matter if the noise doesn't work because the BG is on drugs or whatever as you still have arguably the most effective close up weapon available.
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Old August 28, 2008, 09:16 AM   #116
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JAE,
Boy, this thread has some legs! I did not expect it to go 5 pages.

You said “I know it's good marketing, but following the "logic" we've all been fed too many times to count, no one needs to buy any more shotguns. All
we need are recordings of the pump action shotguns being racked.
Let's just debunk this bull right here. A perp that will grovel at the mere
sound of a shotgun being racked probably can be chased off by a poodle.”

And enough folks have given responses to your bait, including myself.

There are other parts of your original post that I would like to respond to.
You said “I personally would rather have a high powered semi-auto rifle myself, if I'm trained on it. Otherwise, I would much rather defend myself with a 1911 or a revolver.”

So really much of your ilk at racking a shotgun is that you prefer another weapon for self defense. OK I get it. Does that in some way diminish the effectiveness of a shotgun simply because of (in your words) folklore, I think not! I believe it is the best close range weapon that we have. Now, I am well trained in its use, confident in its application, and have a combat history with scatterguns. That does make a difference! I suggest that you are giving up a great deal of defensive strength by choosing a handgun over a scattergun simply because of your admitted lack of training. GET TRAINED, get familiar with this weapon and then you can make an objective decision.

You suggest that rifles and scatterguns requiring operator training to be useful as defensive tools, I agree. Further and something you did not mention is that handguns also require operator training to be useful. As a matter of fact every part of a defensive plan needs education, training and practice to BE USEFUL AND EFFECTIVE. So this on its face value does not exclude the scattergun as a primary and effective weapon for personal defense.

As I stated in my first post, the racking of a shotgun does draw my full attention. I do not know if it would cause a predator to flee my home, if it does so much the better. My point was that pumping the action reward and forward on a pump shotgun is required to chamber a round into battery. Whether that action has mythical properties or not is in debate, however, “it is, what it is” the act of preparing the weapon to fight.

Finally there is some good to come from this thread;
Some of our thoughts around “how to defend” our homes in this thread are different and that is exactly right. There are several distinct defense profiles that are common to home defense. That said, some of our disagreement is due to not defining which profile of home defense we are using and tells me that a thread needs to be started defining them.

Now to add some more legs to this thread;
1st - Some of you continue to generate the MYTH that you can rack-up (load into battery from the tube magazine) your pump scattergun quietly in some “stealth” mode. For 870, 1300, 500 series shotguns this is a FALSE AND DANGEROUS assumption. The # 1 operator error for these guns is failure to drive the shell stops open and allow a round to exit onto the carrier (short stroke) the #2 error is not fully engaging the bolt (locking Block not fully engaged in shoulder extension) into battery. These conditions are greatly affected by how hard you apply rearward and forward energy to the forend. As one Remington factory armorer is fond of saying, it takes brute force to drive the working parts out of the way, and then it takes more brute force to drive the working parts back into battery. This is not a warm fuzzy, touch type of operation, THIS IS A SLAM THE FOREND BACK AND SLAM THE FOREND FORWARD, with force of will and arm. It is a noisy robust operation. Please help me stop this myth, if not, I will get smarter the longer you do this and you will someday experience a type 1 or 2 operator error.

2nd – Some of you STILL assert that you store your scatterguns in condition 1, what can I do to convince you that this is folly. Every year we have injury and death due to scatterguns firing due to bumps, jars, or drops. This is not conjecture this is fact supported by hunting accident stats. Scattergun Bob says, any shotgun that has a safety that does not lock the sear needs to have an empty chamber BEFORE it leaves you hands. Trust that the folks who came up with “cruiser ready” did so because of blood on the ground. To long term store your scattergun in condition 1 is unsafe and in my option unprofessional. To advocate this type of storage on this forum presents a ethical issue that I for one will always speak against. No matter what the activity, if it is worth doing, it is worth doing safely.

"Sometimes it is reasonable to hunker down in your home and hope that you are not the focus of the super predator's work this night. On those nights the comfort of a good Scattergun across your lap, charged with the right loads can make a true difference and bring the light of morning quicker."
Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old August 28, 2008, 09:19 AM   #117
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DA, If you knew someone has entered your home and was now attempting to enter your bedroom would you re rack the slide if the verbal command, get the heck out I'm armed, failed?
Re-rack? No. A single rack, in conjunction with verbal commnads, covers it as far as I'm concerned. If I've already racked the gun I'm not going to go through the process again.
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Old August 28, 2008, 09:26 AM   #118
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Trust that the folks who came up with “cruiser ready” did so because of blood on the ground.
And holes in the roof or floorboard of the cruiser.
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Old August 28, 2008, 09:34 AM   #119
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For me if I hear a window break or a door get breached on the other side of my home I'm not going to wait until the BG gets to my bedroom to charge the shotgun. I'm going to expect my bedroom door get kicked in however if the bad guy tests the knob I just don't see how a re rack would harm anything especially if the verbal commands fail.
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Old August 28, 2008, 09:34 AM   #120
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Boy, this thread has some legs! I did not expect it to go 5 pages.
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This thread will never die!
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Man, this thread just goes on and on and on;

What do you think, guys - is it time to put this one to bed?

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Old August 28, 2008, 09:39 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by pax
What do you think, guys - is it time to put this one to bed?
Yes. The original point was made, and counter points were made and
counter-counter ....

Yes. Please put it out of its misery.
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Old August 28, 2008, 09:49 AM   #122
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Until the next time it is asked. On the USS Enterprise, Worf is debating with Data on whether one should rack their phaser and call a BG a Venusian Blikfuisl Lipnocker when telling them to FREEZE!
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Old August 28, 2008, 10:08 AM   #123
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Thanks for the good discussion, everyone.

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