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Old August 21, 2008, 01:36 PM   #26
sundance44s
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Only problem I see Bill is with week 14 ..would it be limited to under 50 cal ?
If you can work through this ...You have my Vote .
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Old August 21, 2008, 10:33 PM   #27
skydiver3346
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Blackpowder/muzzleloading questions

Was just thinking after watching some anti's on TV tonight.
Maybe we just ought to support each one of us in whatever type of weapon he or she wants to use for hunting, shooting, etc. That way the bad guys out there who are fighting us tooth and nail (they are well financed too) will have a harder time getting rid of any of our hunting guns...................
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Old August 22, 2008, 04:50 AM   #28
Hawg
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Maybe we just ought to support each one of us in whatever type of weapon he or she wants to use for hunting, shooting, etc
It's not that simple for us traditionalists. I've gotta go with W.C. Inlines. (we call'em cheatlines) belong in modern season. There's nothing primitive about them.
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Old August 22, 2008, 06:52 AM   #29
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The State of Michigan has just announced another an extended whitetail season: Sept 18-22. It's the earliest that's ever been done; the season now extends from September through early January with occasional days off. The sole reason is overpopulation, leading to starvation and disease. This at a time when the number of hunters continues to decrease. It's simply disgraceful that we would put our esthetic sensibilities ahead of proven effective game management techniques.
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Old August 22, 2008, 08:56 AM   #30
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This at a time when the number of hunters continues to decrease. It's simply disgraceful that we would put our esthetic sensibilities ahead of proven effective game management techniques.
Well, this ain't Michigan. We have no shortage of hunters and I see no reason to have modern guns in the muzzleloader season that is only two weeks long. It's even a split season with a week of archery in the middle. Archery gets at least six weeks. General gun is five weeks.

It's disgraceful when a whole cottage industry revolves around creating modern guns that are still technically muzzleloaders just so people can take advantage of what was intended to be a primitive weapons season. The whole reason for a special season is to allow hunters who use primitive weapons a chance to hunt without the woods being filled with modern boltguns. If the weapons aren't primitive, as inlines are certainly not, they don't belong in the special season. Thing is, if those hunters were given a choice, they'd rather be using their trusty old .30/06. Not so for the hunter using a traditional blackpowder rifle.
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Old August 22, 2008, 10:06 AM   #31
Wild Bill Bucks
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IN-LINES

A plethora of designs for use with the new percussion principle appeared in the early 1800's. The

Swiss genius Pauley invented the paper cap, then invented a percussion muzzleloader in 1808 and

breech-loader in 1812. His 1808 patent was the first to design and patent a muzzleloading in-line action

in which the cock of the sidelock was replaced by a cylindrical hammer driven by a coil spring.

His in-line invention was capitalized on by Dreyse, who worked for Pauly between 1808-14 and

who used it as the basis for his 1838 turnbolt design which became the Prussian Needlegun of 1848.

Paul Mauser later used the Dreyse needlegun design as a basis for his tumbolt cartridge rifle of 1868,

first patented in the U.S., but adopted by the German military in 1871.



The Dreyse needle gun of 1848. It was so advanced that

any soldier who lost one paid with his life for his carelessness



White later used the Mauser inspired Springfield ‘03 as a basis for the White Super 91 of 1991,

once again a muzzlelader, making the cycle one grand round.

[Pauley]...was the first to design and patent an...inline action in which the cock of the sidelock

was replaced by a cylindrical hammer driven by a coil spring... (1808)
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Old August 22, 2008, 12:26 PM   #32
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That argument comes up every time but the "in-line" ignition is not really the damning characteristic. It's the modern propellants, sometimes even smokeless powders, the pelletized propellants, the shotgun primers, the saboted jacketed bullets, the scopes, stainless steel and synthetic stocks. All designed to afford the hunter every luxury of a modern weapon with as few of the inconveniences as possible while still technically remaining a "muzzleloader".

The special season was created for the traditional guns. The modern guns came later and were created not on their own merit but strictly for hunters to take advantage of the early season without the necessary commitment the traditional guns require. Bowhunting requires a substantially higher level of commitment in comparison to modern guns, blackpowder should too.

If it's stainless steel, wears a scope and shoots jacketed bullets flat to 200yds, it's a modern gun. No matter how it's loaded.
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Old August 22, 2008, 04:26 PM   #33
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The whole reason for a special season is to allow hunters who use primitive weapons a chance to hunt without the woods being filled with modern boltguns.
Gee, that's kind of interesting. I must be spatially challenged here. Tell me again how "the woods being filled with boltguns" means I can't hunt with a flintlock (btw, you really don't mean 'primitive' weapons - I don't know of any state that restricts hunters to stone axes!).

I really don't believe that the muzzleloading (not 'primitive') seasons were established because the flintlock/side percussion lock shooters couldn't find any room to hunt. Of course, you are talking about Tennessee, which "has no shortage of hunters', so you may be right in your neck of the woods.
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Old August 22, 2008, 04:44 PM   #34
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I do remember a time when it took a true hunter to hunt durning the primitive hunting season ...I wish my state would do like PA. does and have a Flintlock only hunting season . That must work well to thin out the number of hunters in the woods . I`ve never seen a scope on a Flinter ..or someone stuffing a Sabot down one .
I hear there are states out west that require side locks only durning primitive seasons .
Here where I live they now allow any configuration of a 45/70 smokeless cartridge rifle as long as it`s a single shot durning primitive deer season....H&R is makeing a killing selling those 45/70 Handy rifles around here ..kinda funny though ..first ya sell them inlines then ya sell them a 45/70 elephant gun to hunt the dangerous white tailed deer ....... scares me I`m glad I`m too old to hunt anymore ...back when I was a hunter ..deer were much easyer to kill .
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Old August 22, 2008, 05:02 PM   #35
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I really don't believe that the muzzleloading (not 'primitive') seasons were established because the flintlock/side percussion lock shooters couldn't find any room to hunt.
Then why don't you tell us, oh learn-ed one, why the special seasons were created? Tell us why we gun hunters are relegated to the sidelines until the bowhunters have had their fun.


Quote:
...you really don't mean 'primitive' weapons
I see you now want to reduce this discussion to semantics. Didn't pull that word out of my posterior orifice. Once upon a time, in Florida (where I was born and lived until two years ago) it was referred to as a primitive weapons season. Do a search if you want to argue about using the term "primitive". Check the DNR sites for Ohio, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, Hawaii, and Georgia. Those came up on the first couple pages when Googled. Besides, "primitive" is rather subjective. There are dummies who consider my leverguns as "primitive".
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Old August 22, 2008, 07:41 PM   #36
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Inlines are most likely suffering their death throes in MS. now. They've been allowing the Handi Rifles in .38 and above. Now(so I hear) they're going to allow them in .35 and above. This will legalize the 35 Whelen. Scopes and smokeless powder are already legal. They still call it primitive weapons season. WTFH is primitive about any of that? The cheatlines were bad enough. I hunt my own place so it really doesn't affect me but I know it does affect a lot of people. One thing is for sure there won't be anybody using ANY of the above on my place. Not and me know about it and if they do they better hope I don't find out about it.
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Old August 22, 2008, 07:55 PM   #37
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WTFH is primitive about any of that?
I just don't get it.
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Old August 22, 2008, 08:20 PM   #38
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I just don't get it.
Don't get what? I thought my rant was pretty clear.
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Old August 22, 2008, 08:59 PM   #39
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I guess with all things technology improves over time but the fact is inlines are still loaded from the muzzle which by definition classifies it as a muzzle loader and besides caliber limitations is all that most states require for there hunting seasons even cap and ball revolvers are allowed in some states.
while im sure that in some areas muzzleloading may be popular but every time ive been out during muzzleloading season with my primitive 209 fired inline,ha ha, I didnt even see another hunter this is in the same area that was loaded with hunters just 1 week before during firearm season.
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Old August 22, 2008, 09:36 PM   #40
skydiver3346
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Primitive weapon or not?

Forgive me for being a little long winded here. Well, I certainly never said my Encore was a "primitive weapon", surely it is not. Not as compared to a real blackpowder muzzloader (without a scope, modern propellants, 209 primers inline, etc).
I wasn't trying to compare the two, just get some advice on a modern muzzleloading rifle (which happens to be a T/C Encore .50 cal).

But if you think about it, a real primitive weapon would be something like a spear, recurve or long bow, and the like. Those are true primitive weapons. As we all know, many years ago, along comes the blackpowder rifle (with rifling and iron sights, round lead balls, etc). Awesome invention. That changed the way everyone hunted and defended themselves. It wasn't a primitve weapon to them back then. It was a modern and productive weapon. Thats why everyone got one that could afford it. Why? Because it was so much more accurate, more effective at longer range and had more knock down power than a spear or arrow. It was a better weapon and everyone wanted one. I guess to each his own when you get right down to it. Times change and now we have modern weapons that are more reliable, more accurate, etc. Some may say, even a better weapon than the old smoke poles? That is not for me to say. But it is the same as back then, when the blackpowder rifle replaced the bow and arrow.....
I do respect the real blackpowder muzzeloaders and might just get one myself one of these days. But after shooting my T/C Encore at the range, I was amazed at the group and its accuracy. It is nice to be able to hit what I am aiming at (especially at a long range). By the way, I did use real blackpowder (Goex, 130 grains). I also feel it is more fair to the game I am hunting to make a quick, clean kill (using a scope for precise aiming point). Guess it really gets down to what we feel is important to each one of us. For me, hunting whitetails is my passion, period. Bow, muzzleloader (of any kind), centerfire rifle. Hell, I would chuck a rock at 'em if they had a rock season. I just want to be in the woods each fall and hunting deer, whatever season it is they offer.
Now that is just my humble opinion. Thanks for everyone's advice and opinion and good luck to all who go hunting this fall.
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Old August 22, 2008, 09:44 PM   #41
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When I bow hunted I used a recurve, no sights, no string silencer, etc. Used wood arrows but that was before I tore up ligaments and tendons in my shoulder and elbow. I can't draw a bow now.
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Old August 22, 2008, 09:45 PM   #42
CraigC
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I thought my rant was pretty clear.
Sorry, it was, I was agreeing. I don't understand how they can include single shot cartridge rifles in the "primitive" weapons season. Makes no sense to me.
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Old August 22, 2008, 09:58 PM   #43
Hawg
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Sorry, it was, I was agreeing. I don't understand how they can include single shot cartridge rifles in the "primitive" weapons season. Makes no sense to me.
Oh, ok. I was the one confused then. I don't get it either. It's not like we're over burdened with deer. The only limits to the rifle is it has to have an external hammer. I suppose that makes it primitive.:barf: Heck might as well let'em use a 30-06 bolt action with a single shot follower for all the primitive an external hammer is. To make it worse I heard from a reliable source we're going to be allowed to bait deer this year. JEEZ, what next?
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Old August 23, 2008, 06:26 AM   #44
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Don`t forget the deer hunting with dogs in MS. something else I want no part of .
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Old August 23, 2008, 07:49 AM   #45
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That's always been the case here but they have dog seasons where you can run dogs and seasons where you can't. I don't care for it. The guy that owns some of the property next to mine runs dogs.
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Old August 23, 2008, 07:59 AM   #46
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Since we've decided to get into facetious name-calling (oh learned-one) I'll make this my last post in this thread.

Yes, I'd like to 'reduce' the discussion to semantics. I'd like to actually communicate instead of using euphemisms and the old 'you know what I mean by that, wink-wink'. Sorry if that challenges you. What you mean by 'primitive' is not what other people mean, and if you really want to fix this situation you'll use terms that actually describe what you want to say. Part of the problem here is that the use of the term 'primitive' has lead to intentional misinterpretation; many people who don't participate in the muzzleloading sports know full well that we don't mean stone axes, so obviously the term can be applied in any way that they see fit. Yeah, Hawg, just having an external hammer isn't 'primitive', but using that word doesn't communicate what you want to the people you're trying to convince. Unless, of course, you are only speaking to 'those in the know', in which case you're wasting your time - they already agree with you.

I note that the reference to Florida's use of the term is in the past tense - they've obviously learned from their mistake. It does not surprise me that several other states still use the term, however. I am already aware of that and don't take it to be a sign of correct usage. State wildlife agencies are political entities, and admitting errors isn't exactly their forte. If the intent was to show that using the term 'primitive' was proper by citing authority it was misguided.

I was under the impression that the implementation of muzzleloading (primitive/traditional/etc.) deer seasons was done for wildlife management, rather than to provide a more solitary experience for a minority group of specialty equipment users. If I'm wrong, then the various state game agencies have all been guilty of at least misfeasance, and malfeasance at worst; their jobs are to provide effective and humane wildlife and habitat management, and they haven't done that. And it's backfired on them, because they weren't precise enough in their language and the woods are apparently filling up again, with people using 'the wrong kind of weapons.'

Look, the real issue is effective game management. Special archery, muzzleloading, shotgun, high power, etc. seasons are tools that, when used correctly can help ensure that both quality hunting and humane animal management exist now and in the future. One solution in all places will not work; different situations require different application of various regulatory tools. It may well be that Tennessee and/or Mississippi should have very tightly restricted special weapons seasons in some, even all, areas. Certainly the northern and upper peninsula areas of Michigan would benefit from that. But some areas, like southern Michigan, need more hunter-days to control a burgeoning population (there are areas in Illinois where the whitetail population exceeds 300 animals per acre!). I think we all need to work together to guide the politically motivated agencies to use ALL their tools, instead of separating into special interest groups that are only motivated by a sense of political correctness. We aren't there yet, but that's what this debate will degenerate to if we don't take a few minutes to look at the bigger picture.
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Old August 23, 2008, 09:36 AM   #47
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Regardless of what you want to call it, and I like to think that the people that created it should have some say in what it's called, if it was strictly a management issue then there would be no special seasons for certain hunters using certain weapons. Period.

My "learn-ed one" reference was in response to your total dismissal of my interpretation of "why" with absolutely no explanation, whether based on fact or fiction. I see now that all you're doing is assuming like the rest of us. As a matter of fact, that whole post had a condescending tone. The very fact that you would bail out after such a reference tells me that your argument is weak and you know it.

Maybe it's the politics of states like Michigan and Illinois that have more to do with the overpopulation of deer. Modern muzzleloaders can't fix that problem.
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