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Old April 3, 2008, 01:32 PM   #1
MagicMan
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Most of my shots seem to be going low & to the left

I'm a new shooter & a lot of my shots seem to end up low & to the left. Can anyone help me figure out what I'm doing wrong? I'm right handed. Gun is in my sig
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Old April 3, 2008, 01:50 PM   #2
JBriggs
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Such is common when shooting a DA for the first time. It sometimes takes a little getting used to double actions. I used to do the same thing when I switched from single action platforms to double actions. I just took more time learning proper trigger technique. Use a nice smooth motion on the trigger.
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Old April 16, 2008, 09:10 PM   #3
1SOW
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Chart might give some help.

Right Handed Chart
Several things can cause the problem.\: Grip (support hand), Trigger "press", pushing to prevent recoil. Load two mags with 3-4 rds. Put a cap in each mag in a different position. Shuffle them behind your back, load and fire all the rounds. Try to see your front sight after you fire each round.
This video helped me. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...363&pr=goog-sl
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Old April 17, 2008, 01:08 AM   #4
pony
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Check your support side hand grip - you could be pulling and twisting the handgun as you fire. A low shot is almost always looking at the target instead of the front sight (especially on subsequent shots when you are tempted to look where your last shot went). Keep the front sight in focus, and the target out of focus behind, keep applying pressure to the trigger - you should NOT anticipate the shot - you should experience what is called a surprised break (you have no idea when it will happen, you just keep applying pressure). Ensure even isometric pressure (pushing with your firing side hand and puling with the support side hand). Do not squeeze the grip. A good Webber stance helps. tuck that support sight elbow in to the body, and extend the firing side hand - but do not lock the elbow on the firing side arm, it should be able to flex slightly to absorb recoil and assist in fast recovery for the next shot. After you first shot remember to "trap" the trigger and reset (don't slap the trigger and allow it to simply be released) - fire a shot, hold the trigger to the rear of the trigger guard and slowly let it go back until you hear a 'click', hold at this point then apply pressure again to fire the next shot - you will have no slack to take up and the 2nd round will be almost instantaneous. If you ever use you handgun in defense then this is essential - if the first round doesn't do the job you need to be able to quickly deliver subsequent rounds as quickly, but accurately, as possible. On a double action (and any handgun for that matter) you should start to take up the slack as you present to the target (not before you have 2 hands on the gun if your drawing from a holster, but certainly as you are pushing the handgun outwards and aquiring your front sight. With practice you will find the break point of your trigger, and have all the slack taken out by the time you have acquired your target.
Practice dry firing and watch for any movement in the front sight as you apply pressure to the trigger - it should remain perfectly still.
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Old April 25, 2008, 10:55 AM   #5
MagicMan
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I made another trip to the range & started to get a little better at the end, but I ran out of ammo. Most are still going low & to the left though. I did notice I sometimes had too much finger on the trigger so I corrected that and same problem. I trfied holding the gun a few different ways, but nothing seemed to make any difference.
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Old April 25, 2008, 11:44 AM   #6
Frank Ettin
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You're literally dropping the muzzle as the shot breaks.

In my experience most of the time shooting low is the result of dropping the muzzle when "forcing" the shot or anticipating the shot breaking.

The first and most important principle of accurate shooting is trigger control: a smooth, press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving and ending with what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break." The idea is that you maintain your focus on the front sight as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. You don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off, nor do you try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment.

By keeping focus on the front sight and increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun essentially shoots itself, you don’t anticipate the shot breaking. But if you try to make the shot break at that one instant in time when everything seems steady and aligned, you usually wind up jerking the trigger and dropping the muzzle.

Of course the gun will wobble some on the target. Try not to worry about the wobble and don’t worry about trying to keep the sight aligned on a single point. Just let the front sight be somewhere in a small, imaginary box in the center of the target.

So keep your focus on the front sight, press the trigger until the shot breaks; and keep your focus on the front sight all during recoil. That is follow through. Be aware of where on the target the front sight is as the shot breaks and watch the front sight lift off that point as the gun recoils – all the time maintaining focus on the front sight. Thus you can call your shots, i. e., know where the bullet will hit.

Also, while practice in very important, remember that practice doesn’t make perfect. It’s “PERFECT practice makes perfect.” More frequent practice shooting fewer rounds, but concentrating hard on what you’re doing, will be more productive than less frequent, higher round count practice.

Think: front sight, press, surprise.
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Old April 25, 2008, 12:00 PM   #7
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Aim high and right!

Sorry, couldn't resist, it's the smart a** in me.
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Old April 26, 2008, 03:49 PM   #8
tok shooter
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that was a cool video
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Old June 8, 2008, 06:14 PM   #9
Threefeathers
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I was doing the very same thing. I went to Brian Enos's forum and did someof the drills.
1. Whil sitting in your office, dry fire. Take an object across the room and concentrate on the fron sight as you pull the tirgger does your front sight move left and down. You should be able to see it.
2. Put your finger deeper into the trigger so you don't pull with such an angle.
3. Hold the handgun with 60% of the pressure from your left or non-trigger hand, only 30-40% from your trigger hand.
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Old June 16, 2008, 07:22 AM   #10
PhilA
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Most often, low and left means you're anticipating recoil. Meaning, your mind tells your hand to "stabilize" the gun so it won't flip so much, so your hand twitches just before the shot and forces the muzzle downward. Some folks call this "dumping" the gun just before the shot.

It's very common, especially among new shooters. One of the best cures for it is dry firing with snap caps.
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Old June 16, 2008, 09:13 AM   #11
Wuchak
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Quote:
Ensure even isometric pressure (pushing with your firing side hand and puling with the support side hand). Do not squeeze the grip. A good Webber stance helps. tuck that support sight elbow in to the body, and extend the firing side hand - but do not lock the elbow on the firing side arm, it should be able to flex slightly to absorb recoil and assist in fast recovery for the next shot. After you first shot remember to "trap" the trigger and reset (don't slap the trigger and allow it to simply be released) - fire a shot, hold the trigger to the rear of the trigger guard and slowly let it go back until you hear a 'click', hold at this point then apply pressure again to fire the next shot - you will have no slack to take up and the 2nd round will be almost instantaneous. If you ever use you handgun in defense then this is essential - if the first round doesn't do the job you need to be able to quickly deliver subsequent rounds as quickly, but accurately, as possible. On a double action (and any handgun for that matter) you should start to take up the slack as you present to the target (not before you have 2 hands on the gun if your drawing from a holster, but certainly as you are pushing the handgun outwards and aquiring your front sight.
These might work for shooting games but I don't think they transfer well to the real world and I'm not alone in this belief. The Weaver stance, not Webber, was developed for competition, not street use, and competition is where it belongs. It requires too much training and reliance on fine motor skills. In a high stress situation you lose control of your fine motor skills. You can't not lose them. It's your body's natural response as it wants to use the big muscles to either fight or flee. The only hope if you are relying on the Weaver is that you have practiced enough to have a high degree of muscle memory. This requires hours and hours of practice to achieve and is a perishable skill so it must be practiced weekly at a minimum. Much more frequently than all but a handful of people have time to do. The basic isosceles stance that uses large muscle groups is the one that works on the street because it's what you will do naturally. Research by the OSS during WWII proved the effectiveness of it. You work with your natural responses and leverage them to your advantage rather than try to fight them.

Rob Leatham and other top level shooters will also disagree about trying to find your triggers reset point. Either Leatham or Jarret has a protip at shooting USA's site talking about this. Trying to learn your gun's point of reset and judging that 1/4 -1/2" of movement under stress is not a great idea. This is another one of those ideas that might work in competition, although the guys at the top of the that game don't even do it, or at the range but in the real world, where a false reset could be fatal, you should let your finger go all the way forward and do the "trigger guard bounce". This is the only way to be certain that you have allowed the trigger to reset. It also means that you have no possibility of failure due to short stroking the trigger when moving from gun to gun.

The stuff that works well in the games for top level competitors doesn't always transfer to the average person for real world situations.
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Old June 16, 2008, 05:08 PM   #12
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Dodn't know if anyone above mentioned it , but try the penny trick. First make sure the weapon is unloaded. Next check the weapon a second time to insure it is empty. Now balance a penny on the front portion of the barrel behind the front sight. Now dry fire the weapon. (this is easiest with semi auto) but not as easy as it sounds. Try it and once you get where you can do it consistantly your shooting will greatly improve.

Then when yo think you really have it use a dime.
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Old August 6, 2008, 07:12 PM   #13
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Wuchak is right. The weaver stance is not appropriate for SD training. Both elbows should be locked in an isosiles configuration. Ready position is with the heels of your hands at your chest. Extending the arms directly toward the target is more consistent from this position, and it is close to how you would be reacting under stress.

I shot weaver for 30 years before I was re-trained, and my tactical shooting improved 100%. Took me a while to get the hang of pushing my thumbs straight towards the target without the "fly casting" tendency.
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Old August 7, 2008, 02:20 AM   #14
Frank Ettin
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Over the years I've learned, and trained extensively, with both the Weaver and the Modern Isosceles (elbows relaxed and wrists locked -- which I find gives me better recoil management). I now seem to be able to use either with pretty much equal facility. I also find that my point of impact is the same with either.

A few years ago, I decided to test whether or not my POI was actually the same with either stance. This was the result --



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Old August 14, 2008, 10:22 AM   #15
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Another thought . . . part of the problem often is not being aware of the flinch or yank.

Get a half-dozen dummy rounds. Mix them with the live rounds in the magazine.


Go shooting.

When you pull the trigger on the dummy round, the muzzle will end up pointing low and left. It's embarrassing. You will not want to do it again. You will concentrate on good trigger pull and follow through so that the next time you "fire" a dummy round, the sights stay on the target.

It's a great drill.
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