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Old June 18, 2008, 03:02 AM   #1
Socrates
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Why give up your right to carry in a shopping mall????

Quote:
A person definitely has less rights when inside a shopping mall.
I REALLY don't get this. Clinton wrote a law I can't carry in, or near a public school. FEDERAL law. I don't like going into federal court, period. I obey. Same with court, etc. that actually have force of law behind it.

WHY do people put up with private business telling them they can't carry? CCW is about 1% of the population. What are criminals? You think they care?

I understand if your permit requires you to honor such stuff.

That's how we loose our rights: Come to Kali if you don't believe me...
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Old June 18, 2008, 05:32 AM   #2
LanceOregon
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Quote:
I REALLY don't get this. Clinton wrote a law I can't carry in, or near a public school. FEDERAL law.
Wow, you are really totally out of touch with reality on this issue. That 1990 law was overturned by the US Supreme Court way back in 1995 ( United States vs. Lopez ). The new law that the Congress passed to replace it exempts people who are licensed by the state to carry concealed weapons. So if you have a concealed carry weapon permit, you can indeed legally carry on school grounds.

Your information on this subject is literally over 13 years out of date, and totally incorrect.

Now just knowing the correct Federal law does not get one off the hook here, as you need to know your own state's laws about carrying guns on school grounds also. Some states don't have any restriction on CCW permit holders carrying at schools, while others do. But that is a totally state by state issue.

Quote:
WHY do people put up with private business telling them they can't carry?
Well, you don't have to if you want. Since they make this a requirement of doing business with them, you can simply boycott their business. Employers can do the exact same thing, and require that employees not bring guns into the workplace.

You can also violate the rule, and risk the consequences. Since you are not breaking the law, you are not guilty of any crime, and thus do not risk arrest. But in the case of an employer, you would both lose your job, and also be ineligible for unemployment benefits. In the case of a shopping mall, you could get expelled, maybe even banned from the mall, if people notice that you are carrying and become concerned and report you.

Schools can have rules that ban firearms themselves, and many of them do. For example, at many universities, if a student brings a gun on campus, they will get expelled, losing all of the time and money they invested into their college education. This applies even if the person has a concealed carry permit, and is thus legally allowed to posses on campus.

This became an issue here where I live when the local university had a rash of rapes several years ago. Female students that had CCW permits asked the school if they could be allowed to carry on campus, because of the rapes. However, the university denied their request, and kept their 100% ban in place.

.
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Old June 18, 2008, 07:14 AM   #3
samsmix
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"...you are not breaking the law."

Penn & Teller could do a whole episode of BULL$#!* on this statement!



Well, since I am a mall ninja now (OH GOD that hurt) I can tell you that:


1) Your best bet is to boycott the mall that won't allow you to carry, but ALSO politely make sure the management of said mall knows why you won't be shopping there. The mall I work in knows why I do not patronize it.

2) DO NOT ignore a sign that say NO WEAPONS ALLOWED. As soon as you pass through the doors with a gun you are committing CRIMINAL TRESPASS (At least in this state). While I would simply ask you to return your weapon to your car, gun hating liberals & wannabe cops occasionally become mall security guards and may quietly sick the local PD on you. You are now open to a judge deciding if (at his or her whim) you are still a CCW permit holder.

3) Always remember: As a private entity a mall can make any rule it wants. It is their house, just like your house is your own. If you say NO CLOWN SHOES in your house folks wearing clown shoes can abide or trespass. The same goes for guns in a mall. It's a public place, but not public property.
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Old June 18, 2008, 07:47 AM   #4
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DO NOT ignore a sign that say NO WEAPONS ALLOWED. As soon as you pass through the doors with a gun you are committing CRIMINAL TRESPASS (At least in this state)
I will have to check with Montana's laws but in most states that is not true at all. A citizen cannot be presumptively required to know private policy of a business. Policy would have to be clearly spelled out at every entrance and then still comply with local and state laws. Even then, criminal trespass (just a misdemeanor) would be very difficult to prove or prosecute unless the person refused to leave after being asked.
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Always remember: As a private entity a mall can make any rule it wants. It is their house
Not true, there are very clear legal distinctions between private property and privately held property licensed/zoned for public use. Trust me, when you own a business you get a great big long list of things from your lawyer that you can and cannot do.

As for the trespass issue, I carried a soda into a Sam Goode once years ago. The manager then confronted me and told me to throw it away and I declined. He said store policy was no food or drink in the store. I asked to see the policy and he did not have it. He then asked me to leave, told me I was trespassing, and called mall security. I stepped outside the store and waited for them. At the end of it all I ended up with a personal apology from the mall manager, a personal apology from Sam Goode, a fired manager, and $1000 in gift cards after threatening to sue them for discrimination and harassment. I only got to use about half of the gift cards before they went out of business a year later.
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Old June 18, 2008, 08:29 AM   #5
samsmix
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Okay, I was speaking a bit too broadly in the interest of brevity.

You have made a few good points Playboy, like the difference between an actual residence and a mall. And yes if the rule you are breaking is not posted at every entrance, the staff must explain it to you and make the appropriate request in person.

Actually, those rules are posted at every entrance to the mall I work in. Of course some establishments may not do this.

As to the Sam Goody thing, I won't dispute that it went down that way, but it did not have to. I have a SG store where I work, but they are a tenant. I do not represent Sam Goody, and they do not represent my client (the mall). It is more of a tenant/landlord arangement. If the tenant wants you to leave, he should not be calling security over it, unless you are disruptive or violent. Now, just because Joe Manager @ SG says "Get yer filthy beverage carryin' carcass outta my store", that does not mean you are banned from the whole mall, unless you break the (clearly posted) code of conduct. Now if the SG manager told you to leave, and THEN you refused to leave, he could call me, and then call police. Personally & professionally I am gonna do exactly nothing but observe unless you get violent. Local PD will trespass you from the property when they arrive, and only then will you be detained if you refuse to leave. The police will ask Joe if he wants you trespassed and if Joe says "yes", that's it. You may no longer enter that SG location. He will then ask if I want you trespassed from the whole mall, and under this circumstance I would probably either say "no" or "Just for today". You may now shop in my mall, but not in Joe's Sam Goody.

And I am sure that all of this varies by state, county or even city.
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Old June 18, 2008, 08:33 AM   #6
Musketeer
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So if you have a concealed carry weapon permit, you can indeed legally carry on school grounds.
Make certain of state laws though... The Fed is knocked out for permit holders but that does not stop the state.

Quote:
As for the trespass issue, I carried a soda into a Sam Goode once years ago. The manager then confronted me and told me to throw it away and I declined. He said store policy was no food or drink in the store. I asked to see the policy and he did not have it. He then asked me to leave, told me I was trespassing, and called mall security. I stepped outside the store and waited for them. At the end of it all I ended up with a personal apology from the mall manager, a personal apology from Sam Goode, a fired manager, and $1000 in gift cards after threatening to sue them for discrimination and harassment. I only got to use about half of the gift cards before they went out of business a year later.
Sorry but your behavior was rude and wrong. Sam Goode caved when they were in the right and you clearly in the wrong. There throwing money at you in the form of gift cards only exemplifies the stupid management which lead to their closing, not that you were right. They need present no written policy to you to require you to comply with something like keeping food and drink outside. The manager has every right to request such articles be left outside and if you refuse to order you to leave. If anyone should apologize it was you.

Being asked to leave because you are bringing food or drink into an establishment which if spilled may be reasonably expected to ruin product and damage fixtures (or at least require unaccounted for time to clean up which costs money) is NOT discriminatory. Saying "No Blacks" or something similar is. There is a difference.

The authority of management to regulate behavior and what is brought into an establishment has been discussed ad infinitum here. Usually it is brought up during a discussion of open carry and people being asked to leave. I am 100% certain some of the actual lawyers here can back this up.

Personally with regards to CCW I believe concealed means concealed. If I fail to see some sign which has no legally binding authority in the states I frequent and happen to screw up to such a degree management sees the weapon and orders me to leave I will comply. I do not worry about missing such signs because they have no legal authority where I am. Being asked by management to leave though does and with that I will comply.
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Old June 18, 2008, 08:53 AM   #7
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Sorry but your behavior was rude and wrong. Sam Goode caved when they were in the right and you clearly in the wrong. There throwing money at you in the form of gift cards only exemplifies the stupid management which lead to their closing, not that you were right. They need present no written policy to you to require you to comply with something like keeping food and drink outside. The manager has every right to request such articles be left outside and if you refuse to order you to leave. If anyone should apologize it was you.
Actually, both my lawyer and theirs disagrees with you. The policy was not in writing anywhere. Therefore enforcing it was not something they could do without opening themselves up to prosecution for harassment and discrimination. It is not my fault they failed to cover their own asses and failed to do something as simple as make a written policy. In fact, Sam Goode even admitted that it was NOT a corporate policy and that it was store manager discretion. That is where they got taken to task by my attorney. The manager was rude, came up and demanded I throw my soda away in a very demeaning way, and then paid the price for his actions.
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Old June 18, 2008, 08:54 AM   #8
Keltyke
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Unfortunately, concealed or open carry is no longer a right, it's a privilege. As such, it's subject to laws and restrictions. In SC, a store or business that doesn't allow concealed carry MUST display a sign stating so. The sign MUST be a certain size, say specific things, and be displayed in a particular place to be legal. All that being said, if a store manager objects to your gun, it's wise to simply put it back in the car, or not shop at that store. The short time you'll be without your gun is far overshadowed by the ill will you'll create by starting an argument in public and possibly getting the police involved. Remember, any store can reserve the right to not serve whomever they wish.

Even though you believe the mall/store policy is wrong, don't challenge it in public. You WILL lose, and you'll create the exact type of publicity the rest of us don't need. A gun is not a cup of soda, and the situations are hardly parallel.

When you signed your concealed carry application, you agreed to certain things, one of them being you will observe the laws pertaining to where and when you may or may not carry. Break those laws and you ARE a criminal. Depending on the state, you may be fined, go to jail and/or lose your CWP.
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Old June 18, 2008, 08:58 AM   #9
samsmix
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Ah, Musketeer brings up a good point: CCW means CONCEALED! If I don't see it, it does not exist. Now from prior experience it does not mean that I don't know you have it, but I am a security guard not a cop, and I cannot force you to show it to me. Just 'cuz some ol' duff in a cheap shoulder rig looks like a dude wearing a bra, it does not mean that I have the right to search him. This is covered under Acting as an Agent of the Government, several other laws, and key articles of the Bill of Rights.

Even a cop has to be able to prove that it is not indeed a J. Edgar-style closet cross dresser in a bra, before he can ask to see your CCW, and even then he must have probable cause.

Also, good point about Sam Goody caving to the pressure. Lots of stores do that, to the point where lots won't even prosecute shoplifters anymore.

At this point please note: I am not an attorney. The advice I am giving you is worth exactly what you paid for it.
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IF we're not supposed to eat animals,
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Old June 18, 2008, 09:16 AM   #10
Chui
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Quote:
Ah, Musketeer brings up a good point: CCW means CONCEALED! If I don't see it, it does not exist. Now from prior experience it does not mean that I don't know you have it, but I am a security guard not a cop, and I cannot force you to show it to me. Just 'cuz some ol' duff in a cheap shoulder rig looks like a dude wearing a bra, it does not mean that I have the right to search him. This is covered under Acting as an Agent of the Government, several other laws, and key articles of the Bill of Rights.

Even a cop has to be able to prove that it is not indeed a J. Edgar-style closet cross dresser in a bra, before he can ask to see your CCW, and even then he must have probable cause.
Police violate the spirit of the Constitution and Bill of Rights daily and it holds up in court with regularity. The key word would be "suspicion".

I don't like it but we have to deal with it until we decide to peacably change the direction of our gov't - local, state and federal.
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Old June 18, 2008, 09:20 AM   #11
samsmix
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Ay, Chui, they do at that, and in my town they do it regularly. That is why I am not, nor have I wanted to be, a cop.

NOTE: To all you hard working cops and other LEOs to whom this does not apply: Please, do not take offense. This is not directed at you, and I have the utmost respect for you and the job you do.
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You'll probably never NEED a gun. I hope you never do. But IF you do, you will need it worse than anything you've ever needed in your life.

IF we're not supposed to eat animals,
howcome God made 'em outta meat?
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Old June 18, 2008, 09:52 AM   #12
TexasSeaRay
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Actually, both my lawyer and theirs disagrees with you. The policy was not in writing anywhere. Therefore enforcing it was not something they could do without opening themselves up to prosecution for harassment and discrimination. It is not my fault they failed to cover their own asses and failed to do something as simple as make a written policy. In fact, Sam Goode even admitted that it was NOT a corporate policy and that it was store manager discretion. That is where they got taken to task by my attorney. The manager was rude, came up and demanded I throw my soda away in a very demeaning way, and then paid the price for his actions.
Sorry, but you were being a pissant.

Sam Goode's store, no discrimination, and people like you and your attitude of "make sure everything is written down" only serve to keep tort-chasing attorneys in business.

It's a simple thing called "Consideration."

If a manager of a business does not want food and beverage brought in because there is a million-mile long list of examples where it has damaged and ruined merchandise, then he has that right.

One of my favorite stores that sells general merchandise, has a sign prominently displayed that reads, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone at any time for any reason." I have personally witnessed them asking pissants to leave the store. I have even helped escort a gentleman to the door who was being a pissant. He complained too, but the cops told him, "Too bad--read the sign."

God Bless Texas.

My general policy with "no weaons allowed" signs is to write off that place as ever seeing a dime of my money.

I have a right to choose who I do business with. If they don't want want concealed weapons, then they don't want my business. I believe in property owner's and business owner's rights--and quite honestly, I think they should be able to discriminate against anyone they like.

Discriminate to the point of detriment, and you'll go out of business. It's a nice Darwinistic way of culling dumb businesses out of the b-world.

Jeff
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Old June 18, 2008, 10:05 AM   #13
LanceOregon
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Quote:
It's a simple thing called "Consideration."
You are totally wasting your breath here TexasSeaRay. He has absolutely no concept at all of what that word means.

I'm confident that he will jump all over you for your remarks here.

.
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Old June 18, 2008, 10:14 AM   #14
samsmix
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My guess here, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, is that if somebody hollered "Discrimination", they were playing the race card. Now at times this is justified, i.e. "Get that soda outta here you rotten N-word", but at other times it is used to get ones own way when it is not the issue at hand. Without firsthand knowledge of the incident, I will not speculate as to what happened. I will however state that if this is what happened, then the issue was one of discrimination and not property rights.
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Old June 18, 2008, 10:36 AM   #15
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Sorry, but you were being a pissant.
Pretty much what I was trying to say without directly saying it.
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Old June 18, 2008, 10:42 AM   #16
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Sorry, but you were being a pissant.
I wish I had the ability to know all about a situation I was not present for and to be able to make such snap judgments on so little information. You could have tried asking me the details.

I left out most of that story because the point was to address the need for things to be properly written and presented to be legally enforceable. I own my own business and it is not really that hard to do and it is the right thing to do.

If you must know the whole story, we had just come from one of our towns first gay pride events and we were wearing t-shirts from the controversial event. The manager that approached us did so in a very rude manner, referred to us as " you ladies", and then when I asked if that was indeed the policy why was he not enforcing that rule on the teenage girls on the other side of the store he replied "I chose when I enforce which rules...not someone like you."

He paid for his actions with his job and he deserved to lose it. He was lucky I chose to go the route I did...
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Old June 18, 2008, 10:43 AM   #17
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I believe...

Utah permits college students to carry on campus. Which is freakin' awesome! You would think that after Virginia Tech, colleges would allow students to carry. I'm trying to remember the name of that one organization that is pushing for colleges around the country to allow law abiding students to carry on campus.


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Old June 18, 2008, 10:44 AM   #18
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That would be Students for Concealed Carry on Campus.
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Old June 18, 2008, 11:32 AM   #19
Capt Charlie
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*sigh*

Not only is this off topic for T&T, it pretty much went south from the very beginning.

Closed, and I don't think explanations are necessary .
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