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Old May 23, 2008, 09:45 PM   #26
Deaf Smith
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A bullet that is unstable does not get more stable as it flies, stability deteriorates. I also find it hard to believe that a 9mm with outdo a 5.56mm on penetration. Look at vest ratings, 5.56mm resistance is 2 levels above 9mm.
HKuser,

The 5.56 shatters easly. When it hits walls it fragments. But because of it's velocity, when it hits Kelvar it goes through (kelvar is not solid like a wall, it gives some.) The 9mm will usually not shatter on a wall, and hence more penitration.

Kelvar Threat IIIa vest will usually stop something below 1500 fps or so. Velocity above that is when the slugs start penitrating.
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Old May 24, 2008, 03:33 AM   #27
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Kelvar Threat IIIa vest will usually stop something below 1500 fps or so. Velocity above that is when the slugs start penitrating.
It's not just velocity. Smaller diameter rounds have a much easier time penetrating the woven strands of kevlar. Any shotgun slug will be defeated by any modern body armor level IIIA or better.
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Old May 24, 2008, 04:18 AM   #28
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First of all, I think it was well covered about how the shot gun is tactically better in certain situations vs a sub machine gun. Also, in other situations the Sub Machine gun is better. That's probably why Alot of SWAT teams carry them both.

As far as the bullets fragmenting on impact. Havent you all seen the Myth Busters episode where they see how far into watter a bullet will still be deadly?

They find that the higher speed rounds fragment basically on impact, making them lethal only about a foot into the watter, they even tried shooting a .50 cal sniper rifle with the same effect. Where the 9mm they shoot had the greatest lethal travel under watter, something like 4 or 5 feet. There for, also like said above, a long distance shot with a high speed bullet will slow the bullet down, allowing for greater penetration... where a close range shot, in which case the bullet is going much faster, it will fragment sooner upon penetration. makes sense to me

I'd also go with what was said above, that the semi auto shotgun seams to be the best of both worlds. It's almost like cheating But, it will never give you that precise shot of an SMG... there for SWAT caries them both
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Old May 24, 2008, 06:21 PM   #29
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"The problem is you think the bullet is not stabilized when it exits the bore, and somehow stabilizes itself after a certain distance is traveled."

Maybe the 5.56 is different (I don't think so), but that is the case with .30-'06 and .308. The bullet leaves the bore with a distinct yaw and doesn't "go to sleep" as the old-timers put it, until around 30 yards out. If you want to see, it is easy, just set up targets a foot apart from near the muzzle to about 10 yards out and you can see the keyholing on the closest targets decline on the farthest. That is why penetration tests show that less penetration occurs close to the muzzle than at, say, 50 yards.

Jim
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Old May 26, 2008, 07:11 PM   #30
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I would only look at the guys I saw in VietNam going into the bush. If he was looking to be point man, . . . many would exchange their M16 or M14 for shotguns, . . . and fill up every last pocket with 00 buck. SMG's were few and far between where I was.

And those shottys were bottom loading, bottom ejecting Steven/Savage rascals that only held 4 to begin with.

To me there is a lesson there, . . . knowing you can positively drop 9 pellets where you point the shotty, . . . and not knowing for sure where the 20 will wind up on rock N roll out of the 16 or 14. I would suspect that all SMG's would be the same.

Anyway, . . . my $.02

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Old May 27, 2008, 04:13 PM   #31
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Projectile Stabilization

I have found two websites that support the notion that a bullet is not perfectly stable upon exiting the barrel. The first one states that on short ranges you can see keyhole impacts in the target. It states that it can happen when the round has not had enough time to stabilize from an initial disturbance. (http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2007...mythology.html)

Now, what could this initial disturbance be? According to the second website, the exiting gases from the muzzle "cause or contribute to three unwanted effects: muzzle flash, recoil/muzzle lift and interference with projectile stability." (http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/55...scription.html) While I would never have believed it, it does appear that a 5.56 round, along with just about any other round, can have a bit of wobble when it exits the barrel, caused mainly by the muzzle blast. It will stabilize itself with the aid of the spin imparted by the rifling. I do not think it has anything to do with the ability, or lack thereof, to penetrate a wall or fragment upon impact, but I now believe that it is not perfectly stabilized upon exit.
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Old June 3, 2008, 12:17 AM   #32
David Hineline
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Shotgun

Shotgun at close range across the bedroom nothing beats it. Stretch that distance out to 7yds and the pattern is spread and not target specific enough. The subgun can easily do multiple hits on full auto from point blank to 50yds. Past that the selector should be put on semi auto.

Those who say a subgun climbs just don't know how to handle a subgun, I am not taking about a machine pistol with a wobbly stock like the MAC but a subgun.

http://myweb.cableone.net/uziforme/m16-9mm.wmv
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Old June 3, 2008, 11:42 AM   #33
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I think that it is a major mistake here to assume that law enforcement is primarily using FMJ .223 ammo. If you look at the law enforcement product lines of the major ammo makers, you will see that the vast majority of their .223 products for LE use are using rather fragile bullets.

Federal's Law Enforcement Tactical Tru product line uses Nosler Ballistic tips. The new Federal Tactical Lite Open Tip Match uses very lightweight hollowpoint .22 bullets weighing only 43 and 50 grs.

Hornady's Law Enforcement TAP product line has .223 loads using their 55 and 60 gr VMAX varmint bullets, which are well known for being fragile.

Winchester's .223 Law Enforcement product line includes ammo using their soft point PowerPoint bullets, the Ballistic Silvertip ( a specially coated Nosler Ballistic Tip ), and some hollow point designs.

These products are all being marketed to Law Enforcement as having the benefit of very low risk of over penetration that could harm innocent people.

.
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Old June 3, 2008, 01:12 PM   #34
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"I think that it is a major mistake here to assume that law enforcement is primarily using FMJ .223 ammo. If you look at the law enforcement product lines of the major ammo makers, you will see that the vast majority of their .223 products for LE use are using rather fragile bullets."

"These products are all being marketed to Law Enforcement as having the benefit of very low risk of over penetration that could harm innocent people."

I agree, adding that I'd be surprised to find any FMJ issued to US LEOs for general purpose use.
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Old June 3, 2008, 09:03 PM   #35
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Frangible ammo is used to breach doors and frangible .223 Remington WILL PENETRATE SHEET ROCK.

I think that JHP .223 Remington will penetrate less than JHP pistol ammo. From what I've personally experimented with FMJ .223/5.56 will outpenetrate JHP through some mediums - including sheet rock.

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Old June 7, 2008, 04:27 AM   #36
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Mac 10: 32 rounds of 230 grain ball, on target, with one pull of the trigger, in less then 2 seconds? That's a ONE BORE going off on you, with no recoil on the shooter. I've often thought that would be a good bear deterrent, just by the sheer volume of lead hitting, not to mention ball isn't bad at penetration.

A mac is MUCH easier to carry around a house, shoot from awkward angles, and, it has sites the equal of most shotguns...
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Old June 8, 2008, 01:28 AM   #37
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"...When I first got..." Exactly. Shooting an SMG, well, is no different than shooting anything else. It takes training and practice to control it. Lots of people think a shotgun doesn't need to be aimed either. A Chopper isn't the best example of an SMG either. As slick as they are.
"...5.56 FMJ bullets will disintegrate upon impact with just about anything..." No they won't. .223 varmint bullets will, but not a military ball round. It's all about bullet construction.
"...until around 30 yards out..." More like 300 yards. A .30 calibre bullet penetrates better past 300. Takes that far to fully stabilize.
"...frangible .223 Remington WILL PENETRATE SHEET ROCK...." So will a screwdriver.
"...32 rounds of 230 grain ball, on target..." Only by a very experienced shooter. Emptying the mag with one trigger pull is really poor use of an SMG.
"...would be a good bear deterrent..." Yogi would get extremely annoyed if you don't hit him right. If he's within 100 yards and charging, you're toast.
SMG's are used by SWAT type cops because they look cool. They're are great things for very close quarters shooting. A shotgun, though, is far more intimidating. Personally, I would let cops have either. At least, up here. Minimal training and little experience shooting anything.
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Old June 8, 2008, 09:10 AM   #38
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This may be a slightly different twist on the subject, but still valid in choosing shotgun vs. smg: when dealing with law enforcement in urban areas, one always has to consider what happens when an officer misses in an urban setting - law enforcement hit ratio is somewhere around 17%,IIRC. This is where the shotgun really excels. Shotgun pellets are spherical, one of the worst aerodynamic shapes because travel through the air generates a vacuum on the rear side. This means you get real power up front, but velocity drops off quickly. You don't get quite as good of a drop-off with slugs, but with their large frontal area compared to mass, they drop off pretty well, too. By comparison, subgun rounds and 5.56 rounds travel a LONG way, exposing innocents to risk, especially in outdoor shootings where there are no walls to slow them down. Simple geometry shows your area of risk is a circle determined by the square of the radius (that being the distance a bullet will travel in free flight before it hits ground.) Also, pump guns which are commonly issued can handle low velocity buckshot which further reduces the risk to innocents: while barricade penetration is affected, terminal effect on soft targets is not affected too much because you are not relying on velocity to expand a hollowpoint.
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Old June 8, 2008, 10:35 AM   #39
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Macs are actually very heavy for caliber, at least the 45 ACP version, and, are therefore rather easy to shoot. Recoil like a 22. When you add either a silencer or barrel extension, piece of cake compared to a M14.

They do have a high cyclic rate of fire, between 600-1200 rounds per minute, and, this combined with a very stiff trigger, makes it difficult to burst fire well.
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Old June 8, 2008, 01:43 PM   #40
Chui
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"...frangible .223 Remington WILL PENETRATE SHEET ROCK...." So will a screwdriver.
And your "point" would be?????

I've not heard of people maimed or killed by screwdrivers being hurled at someone in adjacent rooms.
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