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Old May 6, 2008, 02:47 PM   #1
marshall2
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Mousegun tactics

How to select and use a mousegun...

http://www.mouseguns.com/tactics/seltac.htm
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Old May 6, 2008, 03:20 PM   #2
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Seems simpler all the way around, to just carry a more effective gun in the first place.
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Old May 6, 2008, 05:45 PM   #3
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Bigger is better, except when it comes to concealment. Depending on how you dress, a 'mousegun' may be the very best solution.
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Old May 6, 2008, 05:48 PM   #4
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Nice article.

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Old May 7, 2008, 07:13 PM   #5
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Those mousegun tactics make a whole lot of sense regardless of the piece you are carrying. A dagger in the kidney or the base of the skull may be sneaky, dishonest and cowardly when compared to slugging it out toe to toe with the bad guy, but fighting is about winning. All other considerations are secondary.
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Old May 8, 2008, 02:14 AM   #6
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Those who carry without a required permit need a deep concealment gun
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Old May 8, 2008, 06:13 AM   #7
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While I disagree with his opinions on calibers, most of the rest of the article is good.

A mousegun is only to be used for one thing - close up and personal "get off me" defense. They're not designed for extended firefights, for taking out a biker gang, or for stopping a bank robbery by The Purple Gang.

My wife has trouble shooting anything over a .32 in something small enough for her to conceal, so she carries a Keltec P32. Her tactics are a little different than someone who carries a larger caliber, and she realizes she may have to empty the magazine. She's practicing head and neck shots two-handed and one-handed and with her weak-side hand.
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Old May 11, 2008, 10:35 PM   #8
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I like them.Course I like every gun that I have ever seen!

I believe in them.I believe in the North American Arms .22 revolver as I have several times concealed it in my hand which was visible to all while I begged someone not to attack or hurt me or others as it does not bother me to beg to save a fools life.The same goes for the.410/45 derringers in single barrel and double barrel as they are mouse size with a man eating bite.For a Rat size and easily concealed gun,I love my Charter Bulldog in 44 special.All of mine have always been multi used as I have been a country boy.

I have carried a pistol openly and concealed for over 50 years.It was not uncommon for a 12 year old to carry a pistol in my youth.The small communities and country folk approved as they knew who was trained and who was responsible with a need in those days.They knew who "would stand" with a bad hog or any other situation by the time you were that age.I came up when hogs and cattle ran loose with the open range folk.You carried a big bore for such,even if you were a kid as many were dangerous.I often hunted at 11 with Grand Paws .410 pistol for "jumping up" Cottontails and not ruining the meat at close range.

I find them to be like all firearms.Each has it's place for it's use and it's user.Were we all alike,there would be no use for but one.alfred
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Old May 11, 2008, 10:52 PM   #9
Wildalaska
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Quote:
They're not designed for extended firefights, for taking out a biker gang, or for stopping a bank robbery by The Purple Gang.
Armed citizens arent designed for that either

WildcowercoverdrawandcellphoneAlaska TM
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Old May 12, 2008, 06:08 AM   #10
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Quote:
They're not designed for extended firefights, for taking out a biker gang, or for stopping a bank robbery by The Purple Gang.
Then from the article...
Quote:
They are designed to be "shot little and carried often," not the other way around.
I always get a kick out of folks determining what a gun is "designed" to do. I have never seen design parameters on a firearm that state the length of firefight, activity to be stopped, etc. I have never seen one that stipulates how much it is or is not to be shot or carried.

As best as I can determined, "shot little and carried often" is a translation for cheap quality. Certainly, not all mouse guns are cheap quality. Such generalizations are misleading.

Quote:
If you are under pressure, and are armed with a mousegun, you will do amazingly well to hit a man-sized target at three yards. Fast, excited shooting at over three yards is very iffy.
Either this applies to all guns in general or it is an issue of practice and training, not necessarily a shortcoming of the firearm itself.

Quote:
Sights are rudimentary, and mouseguns are not tack drivers.
The military standard for a long time was simply being able to pattern 4" at 25 yards as being combat accurate for a pistol. The 1911 met this standard and it is NOT a tack driving standard at all.

Heck, point shooters don't even need the sights.

Quote:
They are not range guns.
And here maybe we find the problem for why the author doesn't think people can hit a human-sized target at beyond 3 yards. Since they apparently aren't designed to be shot much and you aren't range guns, then owners won't practice with them.
----------
Maybe I missed it, but what is it about carry gun designs that make them more suited to be carried often? The only thing I could figure would be the lighter weight, but the lighter weight doesn't mean the guns are designed to be shot a lot. It just means they are lighter. Since the Kahr PM9 was mentioned in the article, I have over 7000 rounds through one of mine. It is light weight, is shot often, is used as a range gun for practice with sessions that often go over a couple hundred rounds and it is a fine gun for engaging targets at distances well beyond 3 yards. It would work well in an extended firefight (although few folks would have enough ammo on hand for such).

People often confuse the difference between design parameters and then end-user applications (intent). Just because something isn't designed for a certain parameter does not mean it won't be good for an end-user application. I think the author has confused several such points in the article.

It is sort of like with the whole "sniper" rifle concept. "Sniping" is a task application, often performed with a rifle designed to launch a projectile down range in a controlled manner with the precision needed to hit a target at distance (may be long distance). Whether that rifle is used for tin cans, bullseye matches, deer, or humans is all in the application, not the design. Designs may lend themselves to particular applications or may be what the designer had in mind, however.
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Old May 12, 2008, 06:27 AM   #11
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Quote:
They're not designed for extended firefights, for taking out a biker gang, or for stopping a bank robbery by The Purple Gang.
Seeing as how I am not a LEO my tactics for either of these two situations is A) avoid the situation or if that fails B) running screaming like a little girl away from the area.
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Old May 12, 2008, 06:28 AM   #12
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"They're not designed for extended firefights, for taking out a biker gang, or for stopping a bank robbery by The Purple Gang."

I believe that quote was mine, so let me clarify myself. A "mousegun" can certainly do all the things I mentioned above. However, if you're in an area where you believe you might have to face one of these scenes, you might consider a larger caliber/more rounds carry piece.

"Quote:
They are designed to be "shot little and carried often," not the other way around."

I certainly disagree with THAT! My wife has three Keltec P32s that all have several hundred rounds through them on the range. Practice makes perfect.

"Quote:
If you are under pressure, and are armed with a mousegun, you will do amazingly well to hit a man-sized target at three yards. Fast, excited shooting at over three yards is very iffy."

Crap. That's the reason to practice. If you know what to do by heart, you won't have to think about it and you won't be that excited. If my wife is any indication, practice DOES make perfect. At 7-15 yards, she easily puts 50 rounds into the 8 or better ring of a shillouette target. That's draw-and-rapid shoot, too.

"it is an issue of practice and training, not necessarily a shortcoming of the firearm itself."

Exactly!

"Heck, point shooters don't even need the sights."

Right. Most mouseguns ARE point shooters.

"Quote:
They are not range guns."

See my comment above on the number of rounds shot with 3 P32s.

"Since they apparently aren't designed to be shot much and you aren't range guns, then owners won't practice with them."

Right!

Let me wind this up by saying I'm a BIG proponent of mouseguns. They're easily carried, concealed, and shot. In 99% of the situations a citizen might find him/herself in, they'll do the job - that is, "Get off me!". No one wants to be shot by anything. If my wife's P32 doesn't put the perp down, at least he'll stand there and exclaim, "The b**ch shot me! The b**ch shot me!" LOL! However, that being said, I believe a couple of WELL PLACED rounds will make him think differently about whatever he wanted to try, if he can think at that point.
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Old May 12, 2008, 07:18 AM   #13
marshall2
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Thank you

Thank you all for your comments about my article. Your comments have moved me to make a few small changes, mostly with regard to "liability," you might say. I wrote the essay from the viewpoint of a civilian, not a LEO (Law Enforcement Officer). Different rules apply. LEOs are required by law to get involved, civilians are required by law to get uninvolved, if possible. I still hold to the carry a lot/shoot little view, and that a mousegun is not a range gun. The purpose of a mousegun IN THE HANDS OF A CIVILIAN is to just give you enough edge to survive a life-threatening situation. There is little value in practicing shooting with a mousegun at ranges of more than 5-7 yards. The mousegun is meant to save your life in an up-close life threatening situation. IF YOUR LIFE IS NOT BEING THREATENED YOU MUST NOT SHOOT. If you shoot at someone more than 5 yards away, you will very likely be charged with a homicide, if you are a civilian. I believe that those of us who have concealed carry permits would do well to remind ourselves often that we are not LEOs, and we must not act like LEOs. Thanks again for all the comments.
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Old May 14, 2008, 04:57 AM   #14
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I read something that a gun writer recently wrote, wherein he stated that if one absolutely has to have a .32, that the ammo should be FMJ (for penetration) and that the shooter should fire several rounds at the assailant. I think that did make some sense.
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Old May 14, 2008, 06:10 PM   #15
David Armstrong
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Quote:
The mousegun is meant to save your life in an up-close life threatening situation. IF YOUR LIFE IS NOT BEING THREATENED YOU MUST NOT SHOOT. If you shoot at someone more than 5 yards away, you will very likely be charged with a homicide, if you are a civilian.
I'm not quite sure how any of that changes if one has a mousegun or a larger firearm.
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Old May 15, 2008, 05:38 PM   #16
Deaf Smith
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Well this is the adviced from mouseguns:


Quote:
from mousegun tactics
1 Keep your firearm concealed as long as you can, until you are within three yards of the BG.
And if he starts the ball game before he gets to 3 yards?

Quote:
from mousegun tactics
2 Try to get a grip on your mousegun while it is still concealed in your pocket. This will give you a faster draw.
And if you don't have that time?

Quote:
from mousegun tactics
3 Don't forget that you only have a mousegun. It is not a "go to battle" weapon. It is an "escape" weapon - a weapon of last resort. Your objective is not to defeat the Bad Guys. Your objective is to save your own life. If you can exit the scene before drawing your firearm, then EXIT.
If you could 'retreat' then why would you fire it? Saving your life may very well require you to defeat them!

Quote:
from mousegun tactics
4 Draw from your invisible side, when the BG is not looking directly at you.
Wow, like deer hunting. Many times BGs travel in pairs or more, then what?

Quote:
from mousegun tactics
5 If it is time to shoot, then shoot. Don't talk, shoot.
I loved Tuco (Eli Wallach) when he said that.

Quote:
from mousegun tactics
6 Place your shots in vital areas, and shoot until the BG is stopped.
Hahaha. With a itty bitty .22 or .25 or derringer? At night, low lights. After being hit?

Quote:
from mousegun tactics
7 Pray silently for God to guide and bless - I'm not kidding.
Don't we all?
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Old May 15, 2008, 06:25 PM   #17
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Death by a million scenarios
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Old May 16, 2008, 01:44 AM   #18
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Amen!

Those RAT size guns ain't Mouse guns.I think a lot of folk now days ain't seen a Mouse and a Rat side by side!Even less have held a Rat or a Mouse in their hands.I have.alfred
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Old May 16, 2008, 05:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
I wrote the essay from the viewpoint of a civilian, not a LEO (Law Enforcement Officer). Different rules apply. LEOs are required by law to get involved, civilians are required by law to get uninvolved, if possible.
The alledged "rules" differences you denote do not change the capabilities of what a mouse gun can or cannot do. It does not change the design of the mouse gun.

As for the "rules," that varies by location. Except in the few that state you must retreat or attempt to retreat before acting, all allow for direct involvement in the protection of human life and such involvement is considered under the guise of "self defense" laws. Even those that want you to retreat allow for lethal force intervention. Laws of uninvolvement? LOL!

I know of no laws in any state that say you must not get involved in helping to protect a person who is in the process of being a victim of a crime. If you have information to the contrary, please share it.

Quote:
I still hold to the carry a lot/shoot little view, and that a mousegun is not a range gun. The purpose of a mousegun IN THE HANDS OF A CIVILIAN is to just give you enough edge to survive a life-threatening situation. There is little value in practicing shooting with a mousegun at ranges of more than 5-7 yards.
Wow, you have DOUBLED your distance from 3 yards to 5-7. I trust that you are not a firearms instructor, right?

Quote:
The mousegun is meant to save your life in an up-close life threatening situation. IF YOUR LIFE IS NOT BEING THREATENED YOU MUST NOT SHOOT.
Once again, you don't seem familiar with the law, or maybe you are just applying your own ethics. Either way, the universal you are describing here isn't universal.

Quote:
If you shoot at someone more than 5 yards away, you will very likely be charged with a homicide, if you are a civilian.
...as opposed to inside 5 yards? If you don't have any real data to support this, I am calling bs on this one. This is some of that stuff people pull out of the mythos to do things like justifying not practicing at longer ranges because they targets are just too hard for them to hit.

As best as I can tell, you are trying to interject your beliefs on people and doing so in a manner that is irresponsible and counterproductive to helping save life, if that is your actual goal.

I am sorry that you are no more proficient with you own mouse gun(s) and that you don't practice more.
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Old May 16, 2008, 11:06 AM   #20
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I used to carry a K-T P3AT in a pocket holster, but I found it difficult to hit anything beyond 10yds. I sold it and bought a used Kahr MK9 in 9mm, it is very accurate out to 25yds. and it packs a bigger punch than the 380. I don't feel undergunned with my new mouse gun.
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