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Old May 3, 2008, 09:16 PM   #1
SwingOut
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Join Date: May 2, 2008
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.22 High Std. Double Nine Posse not firing

I got this gun a while ago. I bought it at a show and got had, both price wise.. which wouldn't have bothered me as much if I didn't get a gun that didn't fire each time you pulled the trigger. Anyone know what these are really worth (see more detailed description later). I should have just gotten the RG .22 some guy had, but the seller was selling alot of questionable, "saturday night" type mouse pocket guns, who knows what they may have been used for..

It seems like it may fire more often in SA, but I am not sure. I think it is about the same. Usually the first shot goes off, then every 3-4.
I just think it is not hitting hard enough.

From what I have seen on the web & by looking at the gun, it is a High Standard Double 9 "Posse" Model, 3.5" barrel, 9-shot .22, model W-104. Aluminum frame version, with the brass-looking covered trigger guard and backstrap (finish is worn in some places on the brass. No apparent rust, except it looks like the front of the the barrel was scratched somehow, but it did not hit the rifling. Only other obvious wear is from the cylinder swinging in and out.
I believe it is a 1964 model, but I am not 100% sure.

Anyway, the gun needed a real bad cleaning, so yesterday I took it apart, down to everything except removing the trigger and trigger spring, but I did remove the hammer, mainspring, cylinder, hammer mechanism, and cleaned it all pretty much as best as I could, using common gun solvent, some gasoline, nylon brush for the gun itself, and a brass brush and patches for the cylinder and barrel.

Today, After all the fun of putting it back together, (I'm not gunsmith, but it was a good lesson, and on a gun that I would not care too much if I made a mistake). But it is back together correctly. I am thinking I should not take apart my guns that I like..! (no family or friends are into them to show me how).
And still does not fire every time.
Compared to the pin marks left by my buckmark or marlin mod 60, they are 1) narrow and 2) light. The narrow part I think is just the design of the hammer. I put some fired cases into the gun to check the pin markings for comparison. And I was using federal copper washed bulk pack or CCI for ammo, so it is not the ammo. I've had the federal bulk pack fail every once in a while in all of my .22s, but most often the buckmark. Anyway... (sorry for talking to much.. I have an ear infection and I am on some painkillers for it).
What is the most likely culprit here? Old mainspring? the "pin" (it is just part of the hammer) does not look bad.
If it is the mainspring, what is the chance I could get a new one?
And second, if I find a place that sells parts for this gun, is the pin that holds the barrel in place, well a better question, if I wanted to put a longer barrel in, could I knock the pin out myself and replace the barrel, or is that for a guy with a shop? It is not critical, but a 3.5" barrel is not all that long. But it is just a plinker, if I could get it to work. I want to practice my DA revolver skills on something cheaper than either of my .357s, even when shooting .38 (I don't reload).
While at the show, I did the "standard" revolver check test, and everything seemed OK, locks up super tight.
But it doesn't fire regularly. Given what I paid (not telling, unless someone wants to tell me what it is worth first) (I got it b/c I wanted a .22 revolver to practice with, and I just couldn't afford this absolutely mint S&W k-22 this guy had that I got a marlin mod. 60 rifle off of, which works like a charm, I'm sure his k-22 would have as well. Just didn't have the cash).
I'd rather not junk the gun, but if the cost to fix it is going to be alot..

Some photos: 80-140kb ea.
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...tos/W104_1.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...tos/W104_2.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...tos/W104_3.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...tos/W104_4.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...tos/W104_5.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...tos/W104_6.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...tos/W104_7.jpg



Sorry for the huge post.

Thanks ahead of time- Matt
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Old May 3, 2008, 09:26 PM   #2
James K
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The first and easiest thing to try would be a new hammer spring. Gun Parts (www.gunpartscorp.com) has them at about $3 plus s&h. Mfgr part no. is 7335, GPC item no. is 384690 for any version of the Double Nine (Durango, Hombre, Longhorn). The gun may have been left cocked at some time and the spring weakened.

Actually, while yours appears to have been well used, they were not bad guns. I had a problem with the idea of faking up a nice modern gun (the Sentinel) to look like a "cowboy gun" but H-S sold a whole lot of them during the cowboy craze in the 1960s.

Jim
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Old May 3, 2008, 11:02 PM   #3
SwingOut
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Thanks Jim.

Assuming as I (eventually) figured out how to reassemble the gun, is a hammer spring install hard for a novice? This part I assume is different than the mainspring, right (the coil or leaf in most revolvers in the grip?)
I enjoy shooting, but I have a limited budget and instead of shooting one of my .357s, even with .38 in it, to get better with a DA revolver, I wanted a .22 to practice with. I got this when I was just getting into owning guns personally (moved to a state where handgun ownership is not immediately suspect, with lots of hoops to jump through, so I wanted to start with the basics). No sense in my sending alot of expensive lead down range if I am no good at it.
I also happen to like revolvers as far as handguns go for recreational shooting (own a 4" .357 security six and a 6" stainless 686). I do enjoy my .40 XD, quite a bit (and with ease of cleaning a semi auto handgun-- maybe the revolvers are getting doubtful), but I think good revolver skill is a good place to start learning, or learn more. I know I could have done better, but I didn't see many other options at either of the two shows for something used in .22 revolver, except the K-22, and it was out of my range, and I haven't seen/heard of a .22lr revolver that is price friendly new. Open to suggestions if you think the one I have is a junker and should be turned in for a gas card or something..
The double 9 looks a bit beat up, but the rifling is in good condition.

Like I said I have a browning buckmark .22lr but it is not the same learning experience. The HS looks a bit beat up, but the rifling is clearly visible and looks good.
Of all the guns I have, though, my favorite is my marlin mod. 60.
I also own an XD40 4", Browning BAR 7mm rem mag (caliber was not my ideal choice at all- but I knew the owner and he only had about 22 rounds through it before becoming physically ill, and I got an excellent deal on it considering he tossed in about $85 worth of ammo for $650 total for a BOSS system gun that retails for over 1k). MAK-90,and a 12ga pump shotgun which is my primary SD weapon. (as well as the security six and the 686).
I am waiting for my local dealer to keep an eye out for an 1100 or 11-87 that comes through his way as a used gun in good condition (after my gun show experience, I am more hesitant with them now, even though the marlin mod. 60 I got at a gunshow was/is excellent). The last gun I want is a wood-stocked Remington 1100 or if I have to, a camo 11-87 sporting clay gun. I am not into "evil black" looking guns even if they are the same as something else, b/c for some reason alot of people have an unpopular view of them.
I am getting shoulder surgery this summer so I want something light on recoil for sporting clays.

I just do this for a hobby and don't hunt (but I will eat your venison!), and despite the ease of making transferring a gun in the car with a CCW, I am going to hold out on one, not because I'd carry per se, but because I want to become more proficient at shooting first, and it is harder to comply with the law when transporting firearms in a pickup truck, and it is proving very difficult because the only family member I had that could have taught me to shoot died.

Sorry for the life story, but I am new to the forum and enjoying the posts, not much else better to do while sick.

I recently moved to NE ohio (cleveland) and if anyone knows any friendly outdoor ranges that are public, that would be awesome, esp if I can call or email and find out if I need to have a rest and or a homemade target holder.
Thanks everyone.
matt

I promise the posts will get shorter.
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Old May 4, 2008, 03:53 PM   #4
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I can't help with ranges in the Cleveland area, but I can clear up some confusion. In gun terminology, the mainspring is the spring that causes the gun to fire, whether it acts on a hammer or a firing pin. But so many folks today are not well versed in terminology, that I have been using the terms "hammer spring" and "firing pin spring" to avoid confusion with people who think the mainspring is the recoil spring.

So to answer your question, the hammer spring and mainspring are the same thing, and in that revolver it is in the grip. ("Hammer spring" is also what H-S called it and what GPC calls it.)

It is not hard to replace, but examine the hammer spring guide and its head. Those can bend and some of the heads are plastic which can break. If things are not right in that area, replace the guide as well.

IIRC, you have to remove the hammer to get it out, and reinstall the spring and guide first, then re-install the hammer.

Jim
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Old May 4, 2008, 04:00 PM   #5
SwingOut
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Thanks Jim.

I did have the mainspring out, off the guide rod, guide rod looked OK, spring seemed ok, but it isn't like I have a compression tester for it.
I had the gun pretty much apart, and got it back together in working order after some trial and error.
So if I can find a place that sells a new mainspring, I will install it.

There are about 3 indoor ranges w/in 40 minutes of me, 1 is small and the owner is very unpleasant, the other is bigger, and friendly, but expensive if you have to buy ammo there, I usually bring my own.

The third one I have not been up to yet b/c it is higher traffic area to drive in.

However, it is the place that I may get my CCW testing done, so I may check it out.

If I can find a spring, I won't need a smith for it.
I'm glad I cleaned it all the way down, you should have seen the residue in the bottom of the pail I used to clean it in. Yuck!

Thanks for the help.
I know it is a cheap old gun, but it is a pleasant shot when it goes off, moreso I think than my browning buckmark.

Matt
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Old May 4, 2008, 10:05 PM   #6
SwingOut
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It is certainly a question of how hard the hammer hits the primer area.
I had it out today, and some rounds took 4-5 hits in the same area before detonating. Some went off the first strike. The spring looks a little oxidized, so maybe that is just the problem.
So is the the part I am calling the "mainspring," the part that goes through the grip and has a guide rod that goes through a hole lower in the frame, and a sort of Y shaped rocker towards the top that rides against the hammer? In this model it is a coil, I have seen a few with a leaf-type spring in there, but this is a coil with a guide rod. Everything else seems to be working ok.. timing, where it hits, how it locks, so on and so forth. So I hope it is not a lost cause that will be turned into a gun buyback for a $50 gas card (although I could use one). But a .22 revolver is something I would like to have.

If that is all I need to change, would be nice to get it operational for fun.
It works well when it works..

matt
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Old May 5, 2008, 05:52 PM   #7
James K
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If you look at my first post, I told you where you can get the spring.

Have fun.

Jim
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Old May 5, 2008, 08:40 PM   #8
SwingOut
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Jim Sorry I missed that.

Thanks for your time.
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Old May 14, 2008, 08:55 PM   #9
SwingOut
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Well I got the part today.
The spring I got is considerably longer than the one in there. If I had to guess, I'd say just under 2cm.
The spring that was in there was cut to be about the same length as the guide rod.
Before I go hacking anything off, is there a way to tell how long it should be? Or is there an installation trick that I don't know, which is why installing the longer spring as is seems near impossible?
I don't think the spring would reach coil bind as is if you could install it, but it seems like the guide rod would be over-worked because to install the spring at this length, it would not be entirely straight..

if that makes sense..

matt
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