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Old March 12, 2008, 03:08 PM   #26
Glenn E. Meyer
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I remember this anecdote in a mixed exercise with soldiers and cops. They go to clear a house in training. One guy goes forward and says cover me.

The cops aim their guns at where he is going. The marines shot the crap out of that direction.
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Old March 12, 2008, 03:10 PM   #27
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Glenn sees the subtle difference between Marine training in house clearing and LEO training.
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Old March 12, 2008, 03:10 PM   #28
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The marines shot the crap out of that direction.
Less casualities thatway.Yep they need a bit O retraining there. Weapons suck too Iwas told compared to what the marines are now using.
See that around the corner rifle? I need one of them.
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Old March 12, 2008, 04:13 PM   #29
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Nope, we don't have many basements in Austin, either. I have a wife and 4 year old daughter. They are my responsibility. I will grab our Mossy 12ga and give it to my wife, send her to the "safe room" then grab my AR and follow her, have everyone keep low until everything cools down. Cowardice? not at all. Good sense? I like to think so.

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Old March 12, 2008, 09:42 PM   #30
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Old March 13, 2008, 09:15 AM   #31
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I think the basement thing is just the police department's disclaimer. If you get hit during a firefight they can say "Well, we told him to get in the basement but he chose to sit on his porch with a Budweiser and a shotgun."
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Old March 13, 2008, 09:24 AM   #32
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My cousins were dumb enough to watch the police gunfight out of their second story window in Jamaica Queens almost 20 years ago. Good thing they were on the second floor because the first wound up with some bullet holes...

Generally bullets do not go through the earth and foundation from the outside. The advice was for the safety of the people nearby and warranted given gunfire was already being heard.
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Old March 13, 2008, 09:30 AM   #33
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Safer for the good guys, in general

If the police are on their way, and especially if SWAT is on the way, it's safer for everybody if the citizenry stay indoors and behind cover.

It's safer for the citizenry, in case there is a crossfire. Bullets may miss targets or go through light masonry and hit anybody nearby.

It's safer for the police, because they will have less of their attention distracted by trying to figure out if the onlookers or neighbors are BG's, and will be able to focus on the house in question. Then again, it's safer for the neighbors to not run the risk of being mistaken for BG's.

There are some places where police response is likely to take a long time, maybe too long a time. For instance, one of my cousins used to live in an area where anticipated police response was something like 20 minutes (semi-rural, and a small PD). This estimate was provided by one of her local police officers, who advised her to keep a gun at hand (since her then-teenage son was being threatened by local thugs). In such a case, assuming I knew the neighbors (so I know they aren't running a meth lab, or so I can tell resident from home invader, etc), then I might have to consider providing direct assistance. However, I am not trained for house clearing, and have to accept that I could make matters worse, by adding an armed variable to the mix.

If I did feel like something had to be done by me, and now, now, now, I'd make sure to let the 911 dispatcher know that I was going over there, and give them a good description of myself.

In any case, if I had loved ones in my own home, I'd want them in the safest room possible (IE furthest from the action), and probably have them armed with my 12ga and a handgun or two, plus a cell phone.
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Old March 13, 2008, 09:56 AM   #34
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The dispatcher gave very sound advice. Period.

It's not about cowering in the basment because big brother is coming to put down an insurrection...it is about taking cover versus taking concealment. Those that you decry are public servants, not jack-booted storm troopers.

Whats more, the dispatcher gave you a recommendation, not a direct order. So, it is your perogative to stay topside to watch events unfold, but that decision is not a sound one as far as taking the defensive.

38snapcaps, it sounds to me like like you have some very misplaced indignation to work out.

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Old March 13, 2008, 10:10 AM   #35
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About 15 years ago, when I was still an active duty LEO, I guess that I "locked down" an entire neighborhood. There had been a gang-related shooting which ended up with 4 gang members dead (Believe it or not, but the incident started at a Baptismal party, when a rival gang tried to "crash" the party!)

There were numerous residents who came out to see what was going on, and since there was the possibility of the shooters still being in the area, I asked whoever I saw to PLEASE go back inside their homes and lock the doors. I didn't direct them to their "basements", nor did I even think of telling them to ARM themselves in their residences. That would have been entirely up to THEM to do! All I did was to try to "sterilize" the area to a certain extent, and to cut down on the number of victims by ASKING the residents to go inside. Later, when none of the shooters had been found, my partner and I made sure to knock on doors and tell the residents that we were going to leave the area. I also explained what had taken place, and was THANKED by many of those residents.

It's sure easy to "bash" the police! Having been a LEO, it often amazes me at how little credit is given to those who have chosen that profession! Instead, the less than 1% who are "rotten apples" get pushed into the limelight as an "example", while the 99% of the GOOD ones get NO notice at all!
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Old March 13, 2008, 10:17 AM   #36
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It's safer for the citizenry, in case there is a crossfire. Bullets may miss targets or go through light masonry and hit anybody nearby.
Yep. "It's not the bullet with your name on it, it's all the ones marked 'to whom it may concern'."

+1 for what DesertDawg said, too.
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Old March 13, 2008, 10:24 AM   #37
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i'd go to the basement even if they didn't say so. Bullets can't wonder through sandstone walls. Me with the AR, boy with a shotty, wife with her pistol and thousands of rounds in the basement-- good place to be.
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Old March 13, 2008, 04:28 PM   #38
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It's sure easy to "bash" the police! Having been a LEO,
Thanks for your duty sir, I have cousins on the local force and I am told things are way different today than 20 years ago. Both can retire one will this year he is my age. We sued to go out and cause heck when younger

He sure does look a lot older than me tho. Way more wrinkels and creases, he also does accident investigation.
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Old March 19, 2008, 06:39 PM   #39
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38 Snapped Cap: doesn't seem you got the validation you were looking for.

The responses on this one really brought out the reasonable level-headed folks on the TFL.
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Old March 19, 2008, 06:55 PM   #40
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Well, having lived in a "border" area in a major city...

I'd be on the basement steps with a shotgun... If someone's gonna start shooting, I want to be behind something that'll stop rounds...

And remember - more and more departments are buying automatic stuff, up to and including .50BMG... And I'll bet their training budgets don't have the ammo covered for training for proper fire control.
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Old March 19, 2008, 07:17 PM   #41
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me and mine would get somewhere inside our house. either the basement or one of the second floor rooms and make sure to lock the windows and doors. away from any windows or other areas that i can be seen from. anything unauthorized that enters may be in trouble. 12 ga. in my hands and the g/f would have the .22 semi. with 2 loaded .50 muzzleloaders as backup.
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Old March 19, 2008, 08:12 PM   #42
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You actually said that ???

Quote:
kayakersteve: Heck if the cops want to risk getting shot by a bad guy and do the hard work of finding the BG, I wont stop them.
Yeah, that's what they do. I'm sure they'll appreciate your non-intervention.

Quote:
38 Snapped: "A fully armed man has his possessions secure".
No, just means he has a gun. Having a fishing rod does not mean you'll be having seafood for dinner.

Quote:
Snapped: attitude of the police department that they feel they can totally lock down a whole neighborhood at their command with no thought that the citizens of said neighborhood may be quite able to take care of themselves.
1. the dispatcher (not police) said lock-down would take place. Did it even actually ocurr?
2. would you have been happier if dispatcher said: "I'm sure you can take care of it yourself"?

Quote:
Snapped: you could see the guy (around age 50) was totally ready to give in to any command as long as it was "for his safety".
It's called wisdom. He was still alive to be interviewed. You should watch and learn.

Quote:
CrossHair: keep the phone with me, and observe the neighborhood through the windows. What better way to keep collateral damage down than by keeping the police up to date.
Your's was the only post that made me laugh. I'm sure SWAT keeps your # on speed dial as a command center for situational updates and operations coordination. Did you never get to be Capt Kirk when you played with the other kids?
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Old March 20, 2008, 03:30 PM   #43
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Every once in a while, we'll see a helicopter with searchlight circling the neighborhood, and of course I always call the cops. Police in this area are smart enough to not issue demands, they generally say something to the effect of "Yes, we're looking for somebody. We suggest you stay in your homes til we find him." Not an unreasonable request and certainly not GET INTO YOUR BASEMENT AND LOCK ALL YOUR DOORS AND WINDOWS. People are going to do what they want; some will cower, some will dim the lights and keep an eye out, (like me) and of course some boneheads will even go hunting and think they can do a better job than the cops. I'm pretty sure that this is what police are trying to prevent no matter what they say. Ours are generally just a bit more genial than, say, Detroit's.
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Old March 23, 2008, 11:53 AM   #44
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Sriricha, your sorely mistaken about the untrained citizen thing. Fact is, alot armed citizens practice there marksmanship, if not other tactics a hell of a lot more the most common police do. I know this as a fact becuase, due to my families political nature i know alot of police in the area, and i have asked many of them how often they practice.

Almost 99% of the time the answere was 12hours a year. Thats it. Thats not alot of training, and it dosent take much to figure out that alot of armed citizens practice more then they do.
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Old March 23, 2008, 12:23 PM   #45
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If i were a LEO and i saw a guy in a house with a gun i migh wonder if the perp broke in to that house and was looking to see who is out there.
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Old March 25, 2008, 04:02 PM   #46
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Well, since nobody in the Houston area has a basement.....

But apart from that, Capt. Charlie's post is spot on. Your house, even if it has brick facing or hardiplank, is not exactly the greatest cover in a firefight. You stand next to a window and watch, you're increasing your chances of catching a stray bullet rather remarkably.

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Old March 25, 2008, 04:22 PM   #47
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the Houston area
I was down there during a frost warning folks were covering the lawns and getting firewood at a unheard of price. I was in short sleeves.....


Best practise is call 911 and keep the family safe. Poining a loaded weapon at someone is a no no and you can go to jail and or loose the weapon as the leo confiscate it.

Nephew says to go after them is against the law and he wouldnt do it (Marine). He would get the rest in the basemant and protect the entry points. Keep em out in other words not go after em. Sound advise.
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Old March 26, 2008, 06:06 PM   #48
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why don't the cops just put the crimianls in 'time out'?
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Old March 26, 2008, 07:03 PM   #49
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errrrr...

Honestly I don't see the problem with what the 911 person said. Would you rather he/she tell everyone who calls in to "get a high powered rifle, station yourself at a window and shoot anything that looks suspicious"? I don't think so.

This is much ado about nothing at all, IMHO. Or do you just not like strangers telling you what to do? Seems a little juvenile. You can elect to follow the dispatcher's advice, or you can ignore it. There's no need to get all upset about it.

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