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Old March 5, 2008, 10:24 AM   #51
David Armstrong
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I stand on the side of the law.
So do I. I also stand on the side of ethical behavior and honesty in dealing with others.
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Old March 5, 2008, 11:15 AM   #52
Boris Bush
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Words like ethical are buzz words. If I use a .223 rem to deer hunt for 20 years and take a deer every year and none never take more than 3 steps, is this ethical? Some states it is not even legal. But if it were legal and I did not agree with it, that simple fact would not make it unethical.

YOU may be more concerned with following a rule that could care less about your life or well being. I take the more simple approach, I care more about my life and the well being of my family. I follow the law and thats that.
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Old March 5, 2008, 02:00 PM   #53
David Armstrong
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Words like ethical are buzz words.
Yes, honor, ethical, honesty, all just words. But as for buzz words? Guess that depends on the person. I was raised that a man's word was his bond, ethical behavior is to be strived for, and so on.
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I follow the law and thats that.
So your word means nothing unless there is the force of law behind it? Thank you for letting us know that. If I ever have to do business with you that will certainly be an important factor to keep in mind.
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But if it were legal and I did not agree with it, that simple fact would not make it unethical.
But that is not what we are discussing. We are discussing a situation where you do agree to do something, then intentionally do not live up to your agreement just because you don't want to. That is unethical.
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Old March 5, 2008, 02:41 PM   #54
Inspector3711
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Please remember this was not the policy until about a year ago. Few people here agreed to it. It was handed down and we signed a document stating that we read it. Nobody physically made a pledge that they would abide by it.
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Old March 5, 2008, 03:10 PM   #55
Boris Bush
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I never agreed to follow their "rule", they knew it, some big dogs objected, but could do nothing. I gave them my word I would follow the law, and I did just that.

Sounds pretty ethical to me.
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Old March 5, 2008, 03:59 PM   #56
David Armstrong
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Nobody physically made a pledge that they would abide by it.
No pledge needed. If you are taking the money, you've agreed to follow the rules. If you won't follow the rules you shouldn't take the money.

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I never agreed to follow their "rule", they knew it, some big dogs objected, but could do nothing.
See above. You're taking the paycheck, sounds pretty unethical to me.
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Old March 5, 2008, 08:25 PM   #57
Boris Bush
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I am getting at it that you are trying to play devils advocate, as long as the law is followed it doesn't matter how much money I earn the company I work for and how little a percentage of the profit they give me. I was legaly able to keep it in the car and I did.

I will however admit to breaking one very important rule at my old job when I was a civilian. I met my wife at work. She was a lower level employee, while I was higher up the chain. I flat out violated the rule on dating lower level employees. I did not even care.

I married her and she quit that job. Now I have a family. Now I have the job I always wanted.

As long as I keep it legal. My priorities are on safety. If I can legaly carry I will. The rule at work has NOTHING to do with what I do when I am on my own time and my own time is when I carried. Do you not get it? Now if I carried while at work in the warehouse, then we have some legal problems as well as safety issues. I never did that so all was good.

To keep on saying I am unethical is borderline character assassination. Work time is work time, my time is my time. No laws were broken so I do not see why you see fit to criminalize my actions??
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Old March 6, 2008, 01:24 AM   #58
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I was a supervisor at a state prison in Pennsylvania. Our state issued "Code of Ethics" manual which everyone had to sign for upon receipt stated, among other things, that personal weapons were not allowed on state property (parking lot).

A few years before I retired, one of my correction officers who lived in a very sleazy section of Philadelphia had his loaded personal gun confiscated by our security department. The CO with the gun had hitched a ride with another officer who was found with an illegal narcotic substance on his person while trying to enter the institution. We had a drug sniffing dog. A car was searched for more drugs and the gun was found. The officer with the drugs was later fired!

I was part of an investigation panel into charges against the officer who owned the gun. He attended the meeting with a union rep and produced police reports revealing that he had been robbed twice at knife point while getting out of his car at home. He worked the 2-10pm work shift. The gun was legally owned and the officer produced to us a valid Philadelphia County CCW permit.

Our security department insisted on a reprimand be imposed on him for being found to have a personal weapon on state property. We concurred on the verbal reprimand, at which time the union filed a grievance and the verbal was later reduced to a "formal counsel", which amounted to minor paperwork, which was soon shredded by persons unknown.

At that time, if every staff members personal vehicle, on any work shift, was searched for guns, probably 1/2 of those vehicles would be found to contain a loaded weapon. But under silly state civil service guidelines, correction officers who were threatened each day by convicted felons and/or neighborhood thugs were not permitted to have any personal weapons in their vehicles at work.
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Old March 7, 2008, 10:31 AM   #59
David Armstrong
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I am getting at it that you are trying to play devils advocate,
Not at all. This is something I believe in quite strongly.
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I flat out violated the rule on dating lower level employees.
So we have a history of unethical behavior. One can assume that you also would think it OK to claim sick-leave when not ill and so on.
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I did not even care.
I realize that, and that is where we part. I do care that the rules are observed.
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As long as I keep it legal.
Ethics and honesty go far beyond the law.
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The rule at work has NOTHING to do with what I do when I am on my own time and my own time is when I carried. Do you not get it
I get it just fine. Rules don't matter unless there is also a law on the subject. No problem, if that is your view. But you'll excuse me if I insist on a written contract and money up front should I ever have to deal with you.
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To keep on saying I am unethical is borderline character assassination.
You are the one who keeps saying that the rules and honesty don't matter.
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No laws were broken so I do not see why you see fit to criminalize my actions??
I have not criminalized anything. What is legal and what is ethical may not be the same, as we discussed earlier.
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Old March 7, 2008, 11:38 AM   #60
Boris Bush
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Your problem is that you see your view of ethical as being the only possible way anyone could be ethical. I have a moral obligation to myself to be happy and productive to society. I work, pay taxes, violate no ones civil rights, and tell no one how to live their life as long as the law is followed. I have a wife and kids I love keeping happy as well as safe. I obviously do not care what you know, think, preach, or try to turn me into with your words. I will forever ignore a rule that has no legal bounds that restricts my right to life liberty and happieness. Just aint gonna happen.

FWIW, I have seen what happens when a group of people try to force their ethics on people that want nothing but freedom to live life as they see fit. I have talked to people that watched their husbands head cut off infront of their children in their own house because someone thought they were immoral in the way they lived (lookup moral and ethical, they are linked). I also got to go visit the people that did these things late at night. If I am willing to fight for the freedom of people I do not even know and do things to the badguys most people wont even do one time in their life time to one badguy here in the good ole USA. Then I sure as hell aint going to be a sheeple and lay down my right to protect myself and my family.

It is my moral obligation to uphold the rights earned by every USA citizen here, especialy mine.

BTW. I am not the only one here that admits to breakin the rule of DA. Go do some reading and give it to a few other people here as you have done to me. If you have a problem with me thats fine. Keep your garbage attacks on individuals to PMs or something, and post productive information, like maybe point out a law I may have broken and why someone could get introuble by following my advice. Remember YOU are protected by the 4th amendment, nothing will change that, thats a law, not a rule. Keep that in mind DA.........
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Old March 7, 2008, 12:00 PM   #61
Boris Bush
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If you didnt get that then let me put it in your own words. You in my view useing your guide lines are unethical. You as a leagaly armed citizen have a moral obligation to protect those that can not protect themselves. You left your pistol at home cuz mr. manager says you need to play nice and leave it home. On your way home you see 3 thugs beating down old granny. You know you cannt take all 3 of them so you drive up a little, call the guys that take pictures, take reports, and cleanup (AKA the police). An armed individual has an advantage to eliminate the threat of three to a more safe level for everyone (that happened to a co-worker that was not armed and that is what he did, if it were me I would have helped). Now if you did take your pistol to work, and kept in the car according to the law and used it, your job cann't do anything about your helping. If you followed the rule you just violated your moral obligation to use your legal weapon to de-escilate the threat. In my opinion your following the rule would have been unethical.

You can throw all the words at me you want, I have been shot at, blownup, beatup and kept on fighting, this keyboard infront of me aint no challenge at all.
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Old March 10, 2008, 09:21 AM   #62
David Armstrong
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Your problem is that you see your view of ethical as being the only possible way anyone could be ethical.
Perhaps. I think your word is your bond. I think a handshake is a good as a written contract. I think when you agree to take a man's money you agree to follow his rules for getting the money. I think that just because there is a law that says you can do something that does not make it automaticaly ethical to do that thing. Apparently you disagree.
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Then I sure as hell aint going to be a sheeple and lay down my right to protect myself and my family.
Nobody has said you should, so I wonder why you keep trying to inject that into the conversation.
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Go do some reading and give it to a few other people here as you have done to me.
I believe that if you will check you will find that I have done just that. Nothing special about you.
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Keep your garbage attacks on individuals to PMs or something, and post productive information,....
Sad that you fail to see that ethics and honesty is productive. I think that started this entire process, discussing "honest" gun owners.
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like maybe point out a law I may have broken and why someone could get introuble by following my advice.
For the umpteenth time, there is a difference between what is legal and what is ethical. That's OK. Like I said, if I ever need to do business with you I'll know to demand a written contract and money up front.
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Old March 10, 2008, 09:44 AM   #63
Boris Bush
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You can not judge how right or wrong someone is by your ethics standard.

Person X believes guns ar immoral and unethical to own. I think abortion is wrong. Cars with more than 100 horsepower are unnecessary, some might conclude they are immoral irresponsible and unethical to drive becaues they waste gas.

Don't let your opinion fog what is right and wrong. I am the kind of person that does my own thing and like to be left alone. I know the laws and never break them. In return I don't give a **** what anyone else does as long as they keep it legal. You take yourself too seriously, there are others here I disagree on some things, but we can still meet at a gunshow coming here soon and I know for a fact despite a difference in opinion on some stuff we will get along just fine. You on the otherhand would sweep me under the carpet to self preserve what you think is right.

You won't get my money so dont fret it.


See ya in a few days, I leave for some good training for a few days in a bit.
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Old March 10, 2008, 09:51 AM   #64
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And this one is done.

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