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Old February 21, 2008, 03:43 PM   #26
Conn. Trooper
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Old February 21, 2008, 06:19 PM   #27
grymster2007
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I think I remember Mas Ayoob explain that when pulled over while carrying, don't say "I have a gun and a permit". In fact don't say the word "gun". Say something like "I have a concealed carry permit and I have the unit with me."

If it's in the trunk, I'd have to go with not declaring, but I would tell them if they asked.
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Old February 22, 2008, 12:18 AM   #28
james47
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what If you don't have anything illegal,don't agree to a search (for whatever reason) than the dog comes up,stiffs around a little and tells the cop " This car needs to be searched" You are gonna get searched I mean every dog I've ever owned I could excite with my voice "What Is It Boy What Is It" Youre gonna get searched and they call it legal thats the way it works.
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Old February 22, 2008, 12:23 AM   #29
TexasSeaRay
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I have no problem with people having guns on them, thats why permits are issued. However, its a safety risk to you and me both if I see a gun in the car or on you and I dont know about it before hand. I have to assume you are carrying it illegally, and then my gun comes out.
It's not up to you to "have a problem" with people having guns on them. You are an agent of the law tasked with upholding the Constitution and the laws therein as they apply to your jurisdictional authority and official duties.

Where I live, we don't have to have permits to have a gun with us in the car. And should I be pulled over, it's nobody's business if or where I have a gun in my car or what condition it is in so long as it is properly concealed.

I know all about the "suspect everyone, and treat every stop like it is Al Capone, Dillinger and the Jamaican Posse all rolled together in the car" methods and mentalities preached at every academy in the country. To a certain extent, there is some merit in that.

But it also is a wide open invitation for abuse based upon appearance alone.

I got rousted so many times during my LE days because of my appearance that I sometimes wondered if I wasn't living in East Berlin.

At one point in a northern state, the rousts on our unit were getting SO bad that we began taking cars from the impound/seizure lots, making 100% sure that absolutely zero was wrong with them in terms of safety inspection items, drove the absolute speed limit and did not violate one single solitary traffic law, let alone ANY laws.

Yet, we got pulled over and accused of "speeding," "weaving dangerously," "failure to signal a lane change," "brake lights not working," "having a headlight out, "incorrect license tag number," etc etc. All 100% bogus.

We had long hair and looked like bikers. We drove vehicles ranging from old pickup trucks to new Corvettes and Mercedes Benz coupes.

Once stopped, we were asked if we minded having our car(s) searched. We'd reply that we DID mind and what was the reason. "The Reason" ranged from "this car resembles a stolen car" (even though when they called in the registration, it was clean) to "we had a citizen report that someone resembling you. . ." and so on.

At one point, the rousts were becoming so bad that our SAC and the USA's office had us begin wearing little lipstick cameras and wiring ourselves for audio recording.

We only wondered how many non-cop citizens were getting the same treatment.

Funny thing is the worst the BS roust, the more frantic the apology and pathetic the explanation when you waved that gold badge in the offending officer/deputy/trooper's face and ID'd yourself as a federal officer and explained to him (and occasionally her) just how out of line they were and how deep of doo-doo they were about to be in.

All of a sudden, those "convictions" in regards to how the officer/deputy/trooper felt about what he/she was doing went out the window. Once called on their BS attitude and threatened with arrest and prosecution, suddenly the brake lights weren't really broken, the officer couldn't "exactly remember" the citizen's report, maybe it WASN'T me that was weaving or making illegal lane-changes (it gets confusing out there on those interstates).

In other words, real and valid probable cause suddenly vanished--imagine that!

There is more than enough REAL CRIME (read: FELONY crime) going on in our streets and communities to deal with rather than hassling otherwise honest citizens who "may have changed lanes a little fast" and then piling on about guns they can't see, alcohol that may not even exist or a search of a vehicle based on a combination of "a hunch" and "because I can."

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You do need to answer some questions during a traffic stop, where you live, whose car is this, etc. Same as a "Terry Stop" (Terry Stops are well established case law federally). You dont have to consent to a search, however if you have nothing illegal in the car, who cares? Might get you out of a ticket. I dont ask people to search their car anyway, if I have probable cause I search, if not, drive safely.
Down below, you say I seem to be very anti-cop. Gee, with a statement like yours up above, I wonder why?

I've done nothing illegal, I have nothing to hide, so gee, what's the harm in letting my friendly state trooper have a go through my car?

And gee golly whiz--ESPECIALLY if it might get me out of a ticket!!!

Where do I get the bumper stickers that say, "If you pull me over, I'll let you search my car if you won't write me a ticket."

And some people wonder why I advocate having a digital recorder in their car at all times.

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TexasSeaRay- What "Federal Agency" were you with? BOP?You sound more anti-cop than anybody on here.
BOP? Not likely. I was an 1811 agent with a Justice Department agency.

And because of my experiences and what we saw happen to too many people, I probably am more anti-cop than most folks on here. Or maybe I'm just not concerned about voicing it.

Yet, for the record, my best friend is still with the FBI in CT--has been with the Bureau for over twenty-five years. We go all the way back to boot camp in the service. Our academy was at the same place his academy is. I've got a cousin who is a Texas Ranger, getting close to retirement, another cousin with a major Texas city's PD in narcotics, another cousin who is with US Fish & Wildlife as an 1811 special agent. Lot of our family was military or LE, with most of us having done both. All of them have pretty much the same feelings I do about today's law enforcement attitudes and mentality. They just have too much time in to chunk it and quit. They're too close to retirement.

There are a lot of good cops out there. But they're being far overshadowed by the increasing numbers of bad cops. I blame the idiotic television shows like "COPS" for over-glamorizing the profession and attracting the wrong types.

Jeff
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Old February 22, 2008, 11:06 AM   #30
wyocarp
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Conn. Trooper, I have to disagree with you.

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Have to disagree with a few of you here. If I stop someone and they have a gun on them or in the car and they dont tell me, ticket time. I write about 10 tickets a year,I hate writing tickets, but if I am at your window for any length of time and I dont hear "Trooper, I have a gun on me, I have a permit" You are getting every ticket I can think of. I am a gun owner too, I have no problem with people having guns on them, thats why permits are issued. However, its a safety risk to you and me both if I see a gun in the car or on you and I dont know about it before hand. I have to assume you are carrying it illegally, and then my gun comes out.

You do need to answer some questions during a traffic stop, where you live, whose car is this, etc. Same as a "Terry Stop" (Terry Stops are well established case law federally). You dont have to consent to a search, however if you have nothing illegal in the car, who cares? Might get you out of a ticket. I dont ask people to search their car anyway, if I have probable cause I search, if not, drive safely.
Why does having a gun in the vehicle automatically constitute a safety risk? A cop that searched me told me he was doing so for his safety. I'm thinking, if you are so concerned about your safety then you need to get back in your car and leave me alone.

To automatically assume that it is being carried illegally is WRONG! It would be like assuming that everyone you pull over doesn't have a license.

By the way, if your gun comes out in Wyoming, I can shoot you and kill you. It has been done.

Who cares? We do! We are talking about our rights.
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Old February 22, 2008, 11:15 AM   #31
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Slopemeno, your suggestion is well noted.

Quote:
Wyocarp- I think then it's time to turn the tables on types like that. When they take the cuffs off, say, "Oh, hey, no problem Say, mind if I get a business card from you? Just uh, going to run this by my attorney- I dont think you did any thing wrong, you understand, but hey you cant be too safe these days, can you? Hey, what was the incident number for this stop? And your supervisors name? Is he available, by any chance?"
Smile- be nice- but don't let it go. Supervisor, Chief, City Manager, and so on.
I wish I would have had you there with me. Instead, after being what both of them said was very cooperative, I took a brief moment to vent.

I was working with some guys that liked to shoot and so we all brought different guns to shoot. I had about a dozen in my truck. That didn't help matters, BUT there is nothing illegal about that. As I told them, I have grown up in Wyoming shooting and hunting, and it's something I like to do.

At the end, one of the guys told me that he wouldn't want to meet up with me in the woods. I confirmed that in no uncertain terms.
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Old February 22, 2008, 11:45 AM   #32
brickeyee
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"I only tell them if the gun is on me and loaded (the law in VA)"

There is no such law.
If you have a concealed weapon on you it would be in your best interest to notify (the cop already knows you have a CHP).
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Old February 22, 2008, 11:59 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by TexasSeaRay
And some of y'all would be flat sick to your stomachs if you knew just how many ended up getting arrested and convicted for illegal searches.

When you go from "peace officer" to "law enforcement," it ushers in a whole new mentality. And I'm not sure it's the best or right mentality to have.
Reminds me of the joke -- How many cops does it take to push a suspect down a flight of stairs?

None. He fell all by himself.

Obviously, there are many policemen who are fine people. I do think there is a sociological or cultural problem in law enforcement, even in excellent systems.

Quote:
In other words, real and valid probable cause suddenly vanished--imagine that!
The routine police perjury about probable cause does more to discredit the police and courts amongst poor urban populations than any other single act.

Normal suburban people who see the police as their private security service almost never see that side of the system, and can't explain things like the OJ verdict. Some people distrust the police/prosecutor/court system because they have experience with it being corrupt.
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Old February 22, 2008, 01:24 PM   #34
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Old February 22, 2008, 01:25 PM   #35
Slopemeno
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TesasSeaRay- you and I might not agree on some things, but WOW- more power to ya. Tell it like it is!
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Old February 22, 2008, 01:41 PM   #36
zukiphile
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I see a gun and mine comes out.
That must cause problems back at the station.
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Old February 22, 2008, 01:45 PM   #37
Conn. Trooper
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In hindsight, I dont have the energy or time for anti-cop bs.
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Old February 22, 2008, 01:54 PM   #38
Capt Charlie
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*sigh*

Epic4444 asked about an unloaded gun, no ammo, in a car trunk, in California. He also asked under what conditions his car could be searched.

What he didn't do is start a thread about good cops vs. bad cops, although I should'a seen this coming.

Closed.
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