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Old October 4, 2007, 02:58 PM   #1
tplumeri
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pm9 vs emp...etc

hi, just posted on topic "5 best" re semi's. would appreciate comments/concerns.
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Old October 4, 2007, 06:52 PM   #2
dwatts47
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Though, technically the EMP is "newer" in its design and that would normally make me choose the other to give it some proof time but.... all the 50/50 talk about the PM9 makes me say EMP is the way to go.

I don't own either, I'm strictly an I read/I heard guy on this one. I'd like to know owners thoughts though too.
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Old October 8, 2007, 07:32 PM   #3
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emp is 100 times better than kahr. i'm sorry but i have heard way to many horror stories and unreliable stories on kahr.
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Old October 8, 2007, 08:33 PM   #4
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I heard on the Internet that the moon is made of green cheese so it must be so.... Now that we have that out of the way I'm sure that there were problems with some early polymer Kahrs. There were teething problems with my PM40 but Kahr fixed them. Maybe I'll have problems in the future but at 500ish rounds is so it's going strong. There were problems with some Series 80 Colts, absolute horror stories. Companies move on and improve and their products improve.

Having no experience with the EMP, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one if I were looking for another compact. Because the barrel is so short I would put it through an extensive break-in and testing regimen though. Any short barrel pistol needs to prove its reliability. Of the two it would be my first choice, concealment considerations allowing.

The Kahr PM series I would only recommend to someone that really needs serious firepower in the smallest possible package. It's like the old days when your Colt might work perfectly out of the box, or might need a bit of loving attention to get to perfect function. The good news is Kahr customer service rocks.
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Old October 8, 2007, 08:49 PM   #5
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the moon being made of cheese and kahr being crappy are not comparable.. 1 because the moon is only thought to be made of cheese by kinder gardeners.

kahr has had real problems and thats a turn off.
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Old October 8, 2007, 09:48 PM   #6
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kahr has had real problems and thats a turn off.
So it's safe to assume that you won't ever buy a Colt because a lot of the series 80s were awful. I guess you won't buy Sigs because the Mosquito has been a disaster? S&W is out of the question because some of their products have had teething issues. Para Ordnance had a rough spell for a while. Some of the early Beretta 92s had issues so Beretta is out of the question. My Springfield Armory 1911 wouldn't feed ball out of the box. I guess SA is a no-go to. Gosh better stick to a bow and arrows.

I look at Kahr's PM series like I did the 1911s of the 80s. A fine bit of engineering that will hopefully work just fine out of the box, but may need a bit of fluff and buff to get them dialed in. You could buy predialed-in Colts in the day just like you can buy a predialed-in MK9 Elite. I'm not a cool-aid drinker. If someone filled that niche as well I'd be interested - or would be if my Kahr didn't work so well. It's just that nobody does.
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Old October 8, 2007, 11:35 PM   #7
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Sholling:

Quote:
So it's safe to assume that you won't ever buy a Colt because a lot of the series 80s were awful. I guess you won't buy Sigs because the Mosquito has been a disaster? S&W is out of the question because some of their products have had teething issues. Para Ordnance had a rough spell for a while. Some of the early Beretta 92s had issues so Beretta is out of the question. My Springfield Armory 1911 wouldn't feed ball out of the box. I guess SA is a no-go to. Gosh better stick to a bow and arrows.
Take it easy guy. I see your point and I'll raise you that all the guns you mention are now top notch, but lets give the cautious there dues: 1st: Kahr ain't Colt or S&W and has NOWHERE near the history to simply write off the current list of rather large problems. Next: If this guy spent time trolling around this and other forums I'd be willing to bet he found more "my kahr sucks" threads than "my kahrs 100%" threads.

You seem to have had a good experience with kahr, thats great.

You also seem to take offense to this guy not wanting to spend near $700 on a ccw gun that by all rights has a 50/50 rep right now, and thats not good.
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Old October 9, 2007, 01:05 AM   #8
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Sorry in advance for the long winded reply but I felt that the poster's concerns deserved a full and complete reply.

Quote:
Take it easy guy. I see your point and I'll raise you that all the guns you mention are now top notch, but lets give the cautious there dues:
I think I took a cautious tack as well when I said there have been teething problems. The difference is that I think that problems get solved. We aren't talking about $100 Jennings throwaway specials. Companies charging $700-900 try to address problems so they can stay in business. At least that's what they tought us in business school.

Quote:
1st: Kahr ain't Colt or S&W and has NOWHERE near the history to simply write off the current list of rather large problems.
What large list of current problems? I see two and three year old reports that joe blow had a frame crack... It's not possible that a manufacturer would have eventually addressed such problems if they were happening? Beretta was getting cracks in a very few early 92s? Do we write off Beretta forever? That's an issue that's easily solved. As we learned with early 1911s feeding problems are a delicate balance and individual examples may need a bit of adjustment.

Quote:
Next: If this guy spent time trolling around this and other forums I'd be willing to bet he found more "my kahr sucks" threads than "my kahrs 100%" threads.
No doubt, no doubt at all. There are (with the exception of Glockophiles) more people are willing to take the time to complain than praise. It's just human nature. Look at all the 99.999% BS that got slung about Kimbers. Somebody's father's cousin's friend's aunt's grandkid heard that all the little pieces turn to dust every third full moon and it gets repeated over and over on forums as gospel. And speaking of Glockophiles, if we took their statements to heart we'd all believe that no 1911 has ever fired two shots in a row without dissolving into a pile of rust.

Quote:
You seem to have had a good experience with kahr, thats great.
Actually I admitted up front that mine had to go into the shop. It works fine now. My last Camero blew a differential at six months old. I didn't sell it and buy a Ford. I got it fixed and drove it another 10 years. The point I was making is yes it's bleeding edge technology, but Kahr stands behind their products and any issues can be worked through, just like with any fairly new product. Now if somebody has repeated problems and Kahr doesn't solve them then they have a legit gripe. But only if they handled it like an adult. If you call and cuss out customer service, anybodies customer service - you won't like the result. Trust me, I've done customer service. Talk to us as nice as we talk to you and stuff gets done. Get surly and your product will sit for 3 months and then be returned untouched.

What does offend me, and I'm not pointing to anybody at all in this thread. But what does offend me is the percentage of Kahr hate stories on the Internet that are driven by nothing more than religious bigotry. It adds a huge grain of salt to what I read.

Quote:
You also seem to take offense to this guy not wanting to spend near $700 on a ccw gun that by all rights has a 50/50 rep right now, and thats not good.
Actually I'm not in the slightest bit offended just amused. I don't care what people buy. I own zero Kahr stock (do they sell stock?). I even think that I said "The Kahr PM series I would only recommend to someone that really needs serious firepower in the smallest possible package." I just felt that some of the acid comments were at best unfair and some of the criticism a bit overblown or at the least a bit dated. I'm also amused because that 50/50 rep probably translates into 99.9/.1 real world experiences. Squeaky wheels always make more noise than well oiled ones.

What apparently got lost was my tongue being planted firmly in cheek as I framed each reply. I guess that didn't come through. That's why I took the time and space to go into detail here. I'm too old and have been around the Internet way too long to let anything said in a forum do much more than amuse and educate me. Heck maybe my Kahr will fall apart and I'll be back to join the complainers.
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Old October 9, 2007, 01:25 AM   #9
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ah Dwatts47 i see your into gunsmithing that has always interested me.

on another note i must apologize for being so apathetic in nature to the subject of Kahr Arms.

but i will leave you with this... i have spent the last 2 years of my life researching which firearm to buy, when i say the last 2 years i mean every day for 8 hours or more a day. I looked at every conceivable means to find something that would out last me with the least amount of problems.
and much of this time was also devoted to the research of calibers and their ballistics. i have my firearm and my extensive search lead me to the exact place i desired to be.

perhaps one day kahr, but not today.

now i need a job
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Old October 9, 2007, 02:04 AM   #10
sholling
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Quote:
now i need a job
God I can relate to that. I retired 15 months ago and I'm going nuts. And boredom leads to spending money. I have all the guns that I need and then some, and then some more..., plus one more on order. I haven't even picked the new one up and I'm already getting the itch for a 1911 target pistol, or two... I'm going to need a job if I keep this up.
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Old October 9, 2007, 02:08 AM   #11
Rasputin
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i know this is off topic but you seem to have a 1911 or so whats your fav sholling?

ignore my sig

and just so this post dosent get moved for being off topic i better say something...

emp 1911 looks cool yay um... get one now.. umm obey!
and a kahr for back up!!! or is it emp for back up.. now i'm confused.
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Old October 9, 2007, 04:04 AM   #12
sholling
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I only have 2 1911s. A late 1980's Springfield Armory predecessor to the Mil-Spec. It's had the action smoothed out, Trijicons, and a CT grip added, and it's having the trigger done right now. The other is an early Kimber stainless/alloy Ultra Carry. Favorite? I don't know. I have two new 1911's on my list, I'm just not sure which two. I've been looking at a few. I have a S&W M&P 45 on order so I don't really need another fighting 45, but that don't mean I don't want more. The M&P will get a 4.5lb trigger, Trijicons, and CT grips as soon as I have 100rds through it.

I came close to putting a deposit down on a Springfield TRP on Saturday. But the trigger was over 4lbs, probably closer to 4.5. And I'm not sold on the mag well extension, but dang it fit my hand like an extension of my arm. The problem I'm told is you have a heck of a time getting the Springer trigger down to 3.5lbs. I kept telling myself it would be perfect for both IDPA and home defense. The Stainless match would be nice to. I need both.

My local shop only stocks Colt and Kimber 1911s. So today I looked at a Kimber Warrior just because it was the best Kimber that they had in stock. This is strange but it didn't feel as natural in my hand as the TRP. But the trigger was head and shoulders better. ~3.5lbs I'm guessing, and super sweet. But I like stainless and Kimber stainless rusts. If I hit the Loto then the Gold Stainless. The street price is around $1500-1600 but you only need one

Next on my list to look at are the S&W 1911s. They would need a trigger job to get down from 4.5lbs to 3.5lbs but that's ok. I could see myself a with a Target model, and later a fighting version. These are $900-1200.

Best? Heck I don't know, I want one of each of the above. Right now I'm guessing I'll get a S&W but who knows.

Here is a good read.
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Old October 9, 2007, 08:27 AM   #13
dwatts47
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What apparently got lost was my tongue being planted firmly in cheek as I framed each reply.
At last we are on the same page Sholling... My brash, if not a little snippy, replies often lead folks to believe I'm trying to pick an arguement.... not so.

Your response was well put and I now see the tongue in cheek.

You are correct about human nature wanting to focus on the bad, and I especially agree with the rumors about the Moons' involvement with what ever church being a large source of the controversy.

About the large list of problems and 50/50 rep... All I meant to convey there was that a relatively new firearms maker, with a few documented problems with their guns and some bad publicity is enought to turn most people away before they ever even handle one of the guns.

Last I may be a Glocker, but you won't catch me telling someone the Baby G-lock is the only small gun to buy cause none of the rest work.

Thanks for your response.
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