The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old September 25, 2007, 08:18 AM   #51
Justme
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2007
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,066
EasyG I agree with some of your comments, but disagree with others.

"But I refuse to submit to criminals who intend to harm me or my family."

I agree, and will use whatever force is at my disposal in defense of my family. I have inspected and launched aircraft capable of taking out whole cities, perhaps even small countries, without moral hesitation. If I didn't believe in using force to protect my family, even extended family, this would not have been morally OK with me.

"And I refuse to sit by, doing nothing, and watch, as criminals harm other innocent people."

Again, I agree. For me to function in the military it helped me to think of all my countrymen as "extended family". Of course I live in appalacia so most people I run into are in actual fact "extended family".

"And I refuse to sit by, doing nothing, as criminals take that which I have worked so hard to have."

This is where I have a problem. While I would not "do nothing" I fear you consider anything less than using deadly force as "doing nothing". I would not use deadly force to protect belongings, but understand why others might.

"And I refuse to run away or hide while criminals invade my home."

Pride goes before the fall, or whatever that quote is. Nothing you said bothers me as much as this. It implies that your pride is more important than your life. I have no macho need to prove myself by putting myself in harms way if I can possibly avoid it. I am a single parent of a 13 year old, and although my mother or grown daughter could probably raise him they might not do so the way I would. I feel sorry for anyone who is so insecure that they would rather risk their life than be seen as a coward. I know I am a coward, I have run from people with knives and tireirons, I have crawled on my belly in a stream while idiots shot at me, and I would do so again in those same situations. Alas I can not crawl or run as well as I once could. My years of experience have taught me that running and hiding is a very underrated self defense tool.
Justme is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 11:39 AM   #52
Lurper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2006
Posts: 943
Quote:
The disturbance was caused by an angry teenage boy with a rifle . . . . . . The boy was just a boy.
Actually, Maldonado was 20 years old at the time. He just looked young. Sort of off topic, but a child with a firearm is just as lethal as an adult and should be treated accordingly.

Lethal force should only be used when no other option exists. No matter how justified your shooting is, your life will change once you shoot someone. You will have the initial phases where there may/may not be a lengthy investigation, charges, trial etc.. But even if you aren't charged there will be subtle changes. Some of your associates/friends/coworkers will look at you differently (as in Bill's example), you may be viewed as a pariah or hero in you town (even good changes can have bad unforseen consequences). You run the risk of retaliation and may have to look over your shoulder or move to another state. Unless you thrive on turmoil, you are better off retreating than shooting. I am not advocating submission in any way, shape or form. It just makes more sense to not pull the trigger until you have no other choice. In the end the only thing that matters is that you and your loved ones are safe.

KNOW YOUR STATE'S LAWS! Before the incident. The last thing you need to do in a crisis is try to decide if your actions are legal or not. If you understand the basic concept of your state's laws regarding the use of leathal force ahead of time, you will already know if your actions are legal.
Lurper is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 12:05 PM   #53
Yellowfin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2007
Location: West Upstate NY
Posts: 2,303
Pondering too long on whether or not to put down an aggressor, though, could easily be the last decision you find yourself deciding on in the realm of the living. Has anyone other than me caught the fact that death of the receiving party of potentially lethal force is only a side effect, and that incapacitation, though near to or indistinguishable from death as it may be, is the only real immediate goal in defensive shooting? Lung shots or even heart shots that can instantly end aggression are entirely possible to survive with prompt medical treatment. I suppose that in most cases the desire to eliminate that person's threat from society forever is indeed a worthy objective, but secondary to eliminating that capacity for further violence right there and then. Death is between them and the medical folks...your survival is your only concern.
Yellowfin is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 12:32 PM   #54
ZeroJunk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2006
Location: Browns Summit NC
Posts: 2,485
I wonder if you have the opportunity to be making all these judgements as to the legality and repercussions of your action,perhaps you are not substantially in fear.
ZeroJunk is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 12:41 PM   #55
MyXD40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2007
Posts: 541
I honestly doubt knowing your state laws in this type of situation will change anything, for me at least.

I'm at the mall with my wifey and kid, shopping, and some punk has a riffle and is picking people out.

I duck behind a massage chair, able to see the suspect..I draw, aim, one shot to the shouler, see what it does, then a 2nd shot.

I can't see that situation comming back to me in court, and me going to jail for it, dispite what any law says.
__________________
$49.99
MyXD40 is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 01:01 PM   #56
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
I can't see that situation comming back to me in court, and me going to jail for it, dispite what any law says.
Thats the attitude I love in modern America:

I believe so therefore its reality. Why take a chance in finding something that may CHANGE my belief.

Easier to do that than take a Saturday off and head to the law library and read up, neh? Who knows, there may be a case right on point.

Quote:
I duck behind a massage chair, able to see the suspect..I draw, aim, one shot to the shouler, see what it does, then a 2nd shot.
WAs Rule of Life 1:

Life isn't Hollywood.

WildwheredoesthisstuffcomefromAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 01:08 PM   #57
MyXD40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2007
Posts: 541
^I'm sorry.. I'll stand behind the fake tree plant, and just stand there and watch some sick kid pick off people. Clearly a better choice, IMO
__________________
$49.99
MyXD40 is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 01:11 PM   #58
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
I'm sorry.. I'll stand behind the fake tree plant, and just stand there and watch some sick kid pick off people. Clearly a better choice, IMO
Who is suggesting that?

WilddidyounotreadwhatipostedAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 01:17 PM   #59
MyXD40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2007
Posts: 541
^I did. Either you're still half asleep or you are hyped up on fumes of a dry-erase marker. Either way, let me break it down for you..

I don't see going to jail for a very very long time. Sure I'll be arrested or at least brought in for questions after that situation. No doubt about it. but to rot in jail becasue I killed a killer? or even just shot a killer? Sorry but unless the jury is clueless, I can't see it possible what-so-ever.

A person has a gun as is KILLING people..what woudl YOU do? ..lets think here please.

And hollywood? sorry, but it's unkown what will be around or if you'd even be in a mall if something like this happend to you..but a lot of the malls around here have massage chairs, which would be a great use as COVER. you know, a material to protect yourself from whatever might be comming or looking your way...


__________________
$49.99
MyXD40 is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 01:32 PM   #60
Fremmer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 3,482
The Hollywood reference pertains to this statement:

Quote:
I draw, aim, one shot to the shouler, see what it does
Why not just shoot the gun out of his hand (just like in the old Western movies)?!?
Fremmer is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 01:46 PM   #61
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
I honestly doubt knowing your state laws in this type of situation will change anything, for me at least.
Wanna try again? Whats so hard about LEARNING? You have your lives and the lives of others to consider.

You want to act in that situation BELIEVING you are justified, hey it's your life...but to trumpet the glories of ignorance in something as serious as the use of deadly force IMHO opinion disqualifies you from owning a firearm for SD purposes.

Here let me make MY POSITION clear to all the LURKERS here who may not have their manhood tied up in this discussion...if you DO NOT study and learn your state's rules surrounding the use of deadly physical force should not be allowed to own a self defense firearm.

8 hours of your life, or less.

Reveling in ignorance is just wonderful, especially when it's coupled with disdain for candidates that advocate mandatory training for CCW folks. I can see why that position makes sense to many in the electorate.

WildwithfreedomcomesresponsibilityAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 02:00 PM   #62
Samurai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2001
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 901
Here, here, Wild!
__________________
- Honor is a wonderful and glorious thing... until it gets you killed!

- Why is it that we fire 1,000 rounds and know that we need more practice, but yet we punch a bag 10 times and think we know how to fight?

- When in doubt, train, train, train...
Samurai is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 02:01 PM   #63
MyXD40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2007
Posts: 541
I know my state laws. funny how you keep going around in circles about laws..sounds like to me, you're scared to use your gun. So why even have one?? But again, think before you speak. In that kind of situation, if you have the power to stop someone from going on a rampage, would you just stand there? yell at him? tell him to stop? throw a t-shirt at him? hide behind bench?

Thank you, sit down.
__________________
$49.99
MyXD40 is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 02:08 PM   #64
Thumper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2000
Location: Sugar Land, Tx
Posts: 1,507
Quick question (and I apologize if it's already been answered)...but I believe it has bearing: How old are you, MyXD40?
__________________
Ronnie- Proud Veteran, Neocon, Warmongering, Baby-Pincher
Thumper is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 02:12 PM   #65
MyXD40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2007
Posts: 541
Old enough to own a brand new 40k truck, my own place, but not old enough to own a boat
__________________
$49.99
MyXD40 is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 02:19 PM   #66
Thumper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2000
Location: Sugar Land, Tx
Posts: 1,507
Your response told me everything I needed to know.
__________________
Ronnie- Proud Veteran, Neocon, Warmongering, Baby-Pincher
Thumper is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 02:22 PM   #67
easyG
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2004
Location: Right here!
Posts: 972
Quote:
"And I refuse to sit by, doing nothing, as criminals take that which I have worked so hard to have."

This is where I have a problem. While I would not "do nothing" I fear you consider anything less than using deadly force as "doing nothing". I would not use deadly force to protect belongings, but understand why others might.
Well, I respect you opinion, but we just seem to see things differently.
In my opinion, when someone chooses to steal from another person, then they have also chosen to place their own life in jeopardy.
Our society is truely in a sad state when thieves can steal from others knowing that there is a very high chance they will NOT be met with deadly force.

Quote:
"And I refuse to run away or hide while criminals invade my home."

Pride goes before the fall, or whatever that quote is. Nothing you said bothers me as much as this. It implies that your pride is more important than your life.
No, you misinterpet...
It implies that the security of my home is more important to me than the life of a criminal invader.

Quote:
I have no macho need to prove myself by putting myself in harms way if I can possibly avoid it.
There's nothing "macho" about it.
And defending you home is certainly not "putting myself in harms way".
I don't go looking for trouble, but when trouble kicks in my back door, I will not run away so long as I have the means to fight.

Quote:
I feel sorry for anyone who is so insecure that they would rather risk their life than be seen as a coward.
It boggles my mind that the act of defending ones own home could be, by some folks, considered a sign of being "insecure".
Defending ones own home is as natural as breathing, and it has been done since before recorded history.
Insecurity has nothing to do with it.
I think some folks have been so beaten down with political correctiveness and so brain-washed by psychobabble nitwits that they have forgotten what it means to be a man.
If you call yourself the "MAN of the house", then it's your job to defend your family and your home.

Quote:
I know I am a coward, I have run from people with knives and tireirons, I have crawled on my belly in a stream while idiots shot at me, and I would do so again in those same situations. Alas I can not crawl or run as well as I once could. My years of experience have taught me that running and hiding is a very underrated self defense tool.
There's nothing wrong with running (or crawling) away of you had no practical means of self defense.
But if you had a pistol and someone was attacking you with a tireiron or a knife....then I don't think running away was the best course of action (but I was not there, so there's no way for me to judge).

Remember these....

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.


A coward dies a thousand deaths.
easyG is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 02:24 PM   #68
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2002
Location: alaska
Posts: 3,187
I think some people just aren't understanding where the mindset of self defense starts. The conscious decision must be arrived at long before the purchase of a defensive weapon, and much longer before the carrying of the weapon. One must come to grips in their own mind, with the fact that if they choose to carry a defensive weapon, they may find themselves in a situation where they must take a life to save a life.
Not everyone arrives at that decision the same way. And some arrive at it far too quickly. Legal arguments aside, one has to accept that they might have to end someones life. Once that is accomplished, then one can adapt their mindset to the mold of their local laws, specifically about the use of deadly force, and when it is justifiable.
A good ol boy from Texas might move to a different state and if he doesnt know he can't use deadly force to protect his property he might find himself in a whole new world of nightmares. Or he might not know about a duty to retreat.

With all that said, I think its safe to say that those who are most vocal about wanting to go out and shoot till slide lock on anyone who lunges toward them will probably freeze in that moment it actually happens to them. You dont got to worry about the ones making the most noise. Its the quiet ones you gotta watch real closely.
__________________
"Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard
spacemanspiff is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 02:24 PM   #69
MyXD40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2007
Posts: 541
Thumper, Nice, now how old am I?
it's ok to guess.
__________________
$49.99
MyXD40 is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 02:26 PM   #70
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2002
Location: alaska
Posts: 3,187
Old enough to still have urinating contests?
__________________
"Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard
spacemanspiff is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 02:29 PM   #71
Hallucinator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2007
Posts: 396
It's a last resort, only to be used when you are sure that you, or your loved ones, or a innocent person will either be killed or maimed. In those situations, I would have no trouble using it.
__________________
Sig 226, 228, 229, 232. XD45 Tactical. Smith Model 60 Chief's Special. Smith 1911. Mossberg 930 SPX.

How we behave as gun owners is important. Posturing and threatening does not serve us well in the public eye.
Hallucinator is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 02:32 PM   #72
MyXD40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2007
Posts: 541
spaceman, you're a very wise person.

based on where I've grown up in life, I've seen lives taken infront of me. Death is nothing new to me. I have no fear in taking someones life who wants to take others for no reason (guy at mall killing random people). There is nothing wrong with protecting your life or someone elses life if in server danger.

The law is there to protect us, and sometimes go against us. Because of laws, if some guy is standing outside a coffee shop beating a womans lil hand dog, becasue the dog pooped on the sidewalk, then theres no reason to go shoot the guy to get him to stop kicking the dog.

It's all basic common sense. Know when and where to draw, and what to do. If you're that worried about the law, even after you know yoru laws, then you shouldn't have a gun, because you shouldn't waste your money on a gun.

I know my laws perfectly clear. But I also know I have a lawyer waiting for me just incase. I have plenty of money in the bank to fight whatever idiot decides he wants to try and sue me because I shot him after he decided to go on a rampage and take an innicent person or persons lives.
__________________
$49.99
MyXD40 is offline  
Old September 25, 2007, 02:46 PM   #73
Denny Hansen
Staff
 
Join Date: June 29, 2001
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 2,365
Wow, 73 posts and dfaugh gave the answer in post 2
Quote:
Only in self-defence, of myself or anyone else.

Applies equally to gun, martial arts, whatever.
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine
Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World
Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook
Denny Hansen is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13206 seconds with 9 queries