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Old August 6, 2007, 08:32 PM   #1
FirstFreedom
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Need an arrow expert - what weight / type?

OK, guys, bought a recurve today - thanks davlandrum and all the others who helped me in that thread. I ended up just going ahead and snagging a PSE Impala 45 lb takedown bow.

I shot it with my arrows for my compound bow, but the rest on the recurve is wreaking havoc on my fletching, soooo... I decided to get arrows dedicated to the recurve with blazer vanes or some other vanes that will stand up to abuse, even though the bow shot reasonably well for me (perhaps the SAME exact size arrows will also work for the recurve - I dunno; that's why I'm asking). Regardless, I may as well get the type of arrow with the best possible chance to match the draw weight etc., of the recurve, as long as I'm going to be buying dedicated arrows because of the vane issue.

So, first let me describe my standard arrows. They are Easton carbon fiber "340s", which means they are 10 gpi, and 29.0" long. So that's 290 grains plus insert, nock, fletching, and tip. I shoot them well out of a Hoyt compound at around 65 lb pull.

Now, the draw weight on the recurve is 45 lbs. So, do I need a lighter arrow? Something about 9 gpi perhaps? What should I be looking at? I need approx. the same length - either 29 or 28.5" arrows are needed for the recurve - I pull it way back (though my fingers are killing me right now). I want carbon fiber.

Thanks. If no one here knows, I'll post at archery forums.
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Old August 6, 2007, 08:49 PM   #2
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Easton 400's should work great.I have enough trouble hitting something with a compound and sights.
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Old August 6, 2007, 10:50 PM   #3
FirstFreedom
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This is from the Easton selection guide chart, for 29" arrows, with 41-45 lb draw weight on a recurve:


Shaft Size.............Shaft Model..............Shaft Weight
520•570R...................A/C/E.....................193
500•550R...................X10........................226
2-18.........................HSpd......................186
3-18•3-28.................A/C/C......................227
520..........................Rdln........................206
2212.........................X7.........................256 A
2114........................X7,75......................288 A
2016........................75..........................306 B

Unfortunately I do not have an advanced degree in heiroglyphics - what's all this crap mean?
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Old August 7, 2007, 02:54 AM   #4
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Welcome to Heiroglyphics 101.

The first five shaft models on your list are carbon, carbon/aluminum or some other high tech material of which I have no experience with.

The last three are Easton tubular aluminum models.

The X7 is a competition shaft that has a straightness tolerance held within +/- .001. You don't need that for a hunting arrow especially with a recurve or longbow.

The XX75 is a higher end hunting/fied arrow shaft made from T-7075 aluminum with a straightness tolerance held within +/- .002. These are tough accurate arrows which are the standard all others are measured by. They are probably the most popular hunting arrow in use today.

Shaft sizes are designated by a four-digit number which indicates spine or stiffness.........their suitability for bows of a specific type and/or draw weight.

The first two numbers indicate the shaft diameter in 64ths of an inch. The second two numbers indicate wall thickness of the shaft in thousandths of an inch.
So a 2216 arrow shaft means that the arrow shaft has a diameter of 22/64ths with a wall thickness of .016 or 16/1000ths.

Confused yet? You will be.

The heavier the draw weight, the stiffer the arrow needs to be. A longbow or recurve will require less stiffness than a compound of the same weight.
A compound with wheels will generally require less stiffness or spine than a compound with cams which releases the bow's stored energy more explosively.

Then of course arrow/draw length and broadhead/field tip weight has to be factored in as well because of the added weight at the end of the arrow. It all has to balance out to get accurate flight from the arrow.

There are some trade offs. You can shoot a heavier arrow with smaller diameter and thicker walls. Thicker diameter with thinner walls to save weight and increase stiffness......or......you get the idea.

The best thing to do is go to an archery pro-shop select your bow in the weight and draw length that fits you, then choose the weight broadheads you wish to use and then consult the Easton Arrow chart for the proper spine based on the above criteria. Your broadheads and field tips should be the same weight. Feathers are best suited for shooting off the shelf on longbows and recurves.

A pro-shop can also help you tune your bow and arrows for the most accurate flight.
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Old August 7, 2007, 05:51 AM   #5
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The 3 digit size number is deflection in inches.So,a 340 would be .340 inches of deflection and so forth.The lower the number the stiffer the shaft.The 500 numbers you mentioned would be less than your 9 GPI.It would be good to try some and see how well they shoot.If they go into the target at an angle from certain yardages they are probably too light.I don't know that there is a downside to being too heavy other than they just won't go as fast.
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Old August 7, 2007, 07:26 AM   #6
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Contact Tim at www.archerysolutionsusa.com, he'll help for sure.
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Old August 7, 2007, 09:52 AM   #7
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FF - glad to help.

I think, without looking at the chart, that you are probably way overspined. Arrows actually flex as soon as the string is released and that is a requirement for shooting. Too little flex won't work and too much flex won't work. It is called paradox - check it out here.

http://www.archeryweb.com/archery/paradox.htm

Are you shooting of an actual rest or off the shelf? Most instinctive shooters swear by shooting off the shelf, as it more closely aligns your arrow, eye and hand. I heard (and just accepted as gospel) that shooting off the shelf required feathers, not fletchs, so I always shot wood arrows, feathers, and glue on, re-sharpenable broadheads.

Stevelyn - nice explaination! The only thing I would modify is that you should decide what wieght broadhead you are shooting and that adds into the equation of how stiff your arrow needs to be. The difference between a 100 gr and a 125 gr might not make a difference on an aluminum shart, but if you went to either extreme (150 gr (yes, they make them, and yes I used them) or 85 grain) you are are putting vastly different stresses on your arrows.

FF - If I was choosing from your chart with your circumstances, I would go XX75s in 2114. Cheaper than carbons. If you are set on carbons, I would reccomend Easton Axis 400 shafts.

Go to Eastons site and use their spine selector. Plugging in your info there gave me slightly different sizes than you had (2117 for aluminums, etc)

http://www.eastonarchery.com/

Personally, I prefer slightly over-spined arrows which I feel work better for finger shooters. Probably more a preference thing than actual.

Last edited by davlandrum; August 7, 2007 at 09:57 AM. Reason: added link
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Old August 7, 2007, 11:20 AM   #8
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Why would I want any deflection? Why not 000 deflection? Deflection sounds like a bad thing. Sorry for my ignorance. Fantastic big help so far though guys - keep it coming. So, if I understand things, the dimensions I need to decide upon are:

-Shaft length. Done, 29"

-Shaft thickness: ????
-Shaft weight per inch: ????
-Shaft stiffness (a function of thickness & materials): ????
The last three will lead me to a specific make & model of shaft, after the questions are answered, correct? Do I concern myself with all 3, or just 2 of the 3, or stiffness only being the only overriding concern? Thanks.

I will be using a 100 gr broadhead, plus fletching, insert, & nock.

I am currently using a little cheapie plastic rest that is just stuck on, but I could take it off and use the shelf instead - is that what everyone recommends?

Davlandrum, at the easton link (2nd link you gave), I do not see any such "Spine Selector" choice. There are "Spine Charts", but they are no help at all - they make no sense to me, and are unreadable as too small of print anyway. No "Spine Selector" there...

And the first link is nothing; doesn't work dave....

After further review, it looks like I need to decide between 400 and 500 deflection index for this bow - which one?

And Dave, what about the A/C superslim?

And why not the "ST Axis" instead of the regular "Axis"?

The superslim is described as:

Quote:
The number-one performance hunting arrow in the world. Combines pinpoint accuracy, downrange energy, and exceptional velocity in the hardest hitting bowhunting shaft.
How can you get any better than that?
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Old August 7, 2007, 12:28 PM   #9
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Quote:
I am currently using a little cheapie plastic rest that is just stuck on, but I could take it off and use the shelf instead - is that what everyone recommends?
FF it is kind of a preference thing. I have a close friend who is a much more experience archer than myself who prefers the shooting off the shelf. To me the main disadvantage is that it requires that you shoot feathers.

I find feathers to be terribly fragile and if untreated very affected by water and humidity.

OTH vanes are not affected by the rain or a very humid day and are more durable, therefore I personally choose the cheap stick on rest and vanes. Again, personal preference.

FF try here

http://www.eastonarchery.com/product...hartsSelectors

Quote:
I ended up just going ahead and snagging a PSE Impala 45 lb takedown bow.
That sounds like a great bow.
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Old August 7, 2007, 01:07 PM   #10
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Charles, thanks for putting a better link in, that was where I was trying to point to.

FF - I will try this link again - It looks like it doubled up the http when I pasted it - http://www.archeryweb.com/archery/paradox.htm

The deflection - arrow flex - is just what has to happen. To get stiff enough to have zero deflection you would have to shoot telephone poles, and even then, I don't think it would work. At release, the rear of the arrow starts moving before the front and the arrow bends as it gets the front moving. Proper spine means the arrow will recover from this at the proper point in space to allow you to shoot accurately. It is a repeatable, consistent thing.

I have never used wieght-per-inch. If your arrow is spined correctly, the wieght per inch takes care of itself.

I guess I meant the ST Axis. I would love to get a dozen of the full metal jackets, but can't justify that much cash just to play with something new and different.

Honestly, shooting a 45 lb recurve with fingers, you are not going to notice a heck of a lot of difference between any of them. If you were shooting a new compound over 320 FPS with a mechanical release, then you could worry about the difference between the super slims and regulars. All the modern arrows, aluminum or carbon, or even wood shafts from a good company are built within tolerances that accuracy is not a function of arrow, but of archer.

Pretty funny claim - hardest hitting. If it gives you 1 additional foot-per-second with the same arrow mass, I guess that would be true, but who cares. But if the extra speed comes at the cost of arrow mass, it would not hit as hard.

Sharp broadhead in the pump house is what does the job. You are not using foot-pounds of energy to kill, you are slicing vitals.

Best demonstration I ever saw was a coffee can full of sand. Shot with a rifle - big bang, knocked the can over, but no exit hole. Same size can shot with a broadhead - arrow went right through, leaving the can in place with sand running out.
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Old August 7, 2007, 03:54 PM   #11
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I've been shooting Easton A/C/C 3-49 390's for several years using a Darton compound at about 60 pounds.If I ever wear them out I might try something else,but they are near indestuctible.They shoot great.
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Old August 7, 2007, 05:23 PM   #12
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ZJ - that is the down side of carbons - they never (almost never) need replacing. At least with wood or even aluminum, I could justify getting some new arrows every couple of years. Only way I have found to justify carbons is to either lose them by shooting grouse sitting in trees, or shatter them shooting at rocks that look like dirt clods while out stump shooting.
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Old August 9, 2007, 09:39 AM   #13
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Dangit, now I'm a bit frustrated....

OK, yesterday, upon advice of pro shop, I bought half dozen of the Easton "Axis" carbon fiber arrows. They are 9 gpi, 400 flex, 30", feathers.

Also bought a finger tab to use instead of a glove, and on advice of a friend, started shooting 3-under rather than split finger. After several adjustments of the knocking point, they were flying reasonably well. But my friend who is a bit of an expert on recurves shot it and watched me shoot it, and says that I am STILL "overspined" - the arrows are still fishtailing and hit inconsistently/inaccurately. He is a guy that with his bow, could shoot a 2" group easily at 15 yards, but he couldn't make this bow/arrow combo do any better than about 6" at that distance, and me, well, don't ask.

So they are still too stiff, it seems. Looks like I wasted $54.00, unless I can get these 400s to shoot out of my compound bow.

I had asked the pro shop whether 400s or 500s would be best and they (2 guys) said 400s, and I asked whether the 8.7 gpi Epics or the 9.0 gpi Axises would be best, and they said 9.0 for better penetration, though I had leaned toward the 8.7 gpis - and the 8.7s were $11 less per half dozen, too. Needless to say, I don't think I'll be trusting this pro shop's advice anymore. Was I right, that the 8.7 Epics would flex more than the 9.0 Axises, even though they are both labled "400"s? Or is the deflection really the same?

So, now I've been recommended to try the "Spiderweb" arrows - my friend says that the spiderwebs are all the rage among traditional archers right now, and that somehow they are constructed differently, and will shoot very well in any recurves in a wide range of weights, from 30 up to 53 lbs. He thinks they are either graphite or carbon fiber - anyone familiar? He says they were originally designed as a kid's arrow, but when the dads & moms found out how great they shot, "everybody" (in traditional archery circles anyhow) started using them - which arrow is this - I cannot find this on the net.

Last edited by FirstFreedom; August 9, 2007 at 10:22 AM.
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Old August 9, 2007, 10:07 AM   #14
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FF,

Last time I used a long bow was back in the 60's, but I did make a few wooden arrows for different guys back in those days. Most of the time when I had arrows that fishtailed, I simply adjusted the fletchings or I turned the broadhead about an 1/8 of an inch, until it stopped ( providing you have checked to make sure that your rest and string are lined up properly)

This may help a little, I hope. I can't remember a whole lot about all the stuff I used to do to get an arrow to shoot right, but I remember some of them really took a lot of time to get right.
Seems like the wooden arrows I used in those days were a 12 lb spine, but I was using a 60lb Bear Black Widow also.

I'm sure no expert on this, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night.
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Old August 9, 2007, 10:19 AM   #15
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FF - Hang in there, it will get better! Once you get it figured out, write everything down and stash it, becuase it will never change. It is hard getting it all right the first time.

Looking at the arrow chart on 3 Rivers Archery (they specialize in traditional archery gear) it looks you you are right on the line between a 400 and a 500 (lighter) spine. Did you tell the guys at the shop that you were shooting 100 grain points? Call the shop and tell them that 1) the shafts they reccomended are too stiff and you would like them to make it right. 2) ask if you can try some 500s at the shop before you walk out of of the shop.

My guess is that you were right on the line if you were shooting 125 gr points (that is the traditional weight). So since you are shooting lighter points, you probably slipped down a size in spine.

A couple other things can factor in. Since recurves don't have a set draw length, you might be shooting less than 29 inches, which would mean you needed less spine. If you are right on the line, which it looks like to me, 28.5 inches might make the arrow overspined.

The other thing is if your bow is actually shooting 45 pounds. Traditional bow draw wieghts are measured at 28" draw. Shooting a take down means you must make sure your limb bolts are in as far as they will go. Also check your brace height (distance between your string and the back of the riser). Your bow should have come with a manual that tells you what that brace height should be, or you can look it up on the web. If the brace hieght is less than recommended, it lowers the shooting power of the bow, since the limbs are not "pre-loaded" as much as they were at the factory. When I put on a new string, I would have to play around with this until I got it set right. If the brace height is low, simply unstring the bow and twist the string. This makes the string shorter and when you re-string it, the string will be further away from the riser.

Just think of this whole process as building a new load for your rifle. It takes time to get it dialed in, but once you have a sweet shooting round, you will be good to go.
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Old August 9, 2007, 10:23 AM   #16
surveyor
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FF,
went to the PSE site, & looked for a manual,
while it covered the compound bows, it left out the recurve..

while a diffrent manufactuer, the concept should be the same,

martin has a fair manual, it may be worth a look (it would explain the brace height as david said)

also noted that the impala has a brace height of 6-7"
while the martins are diffrent..

main reason that I'm more consistent with my compound is that the draw length is always the same, my anchor point is the same, & I don't strain as much with it..and use a release..

alot to be said for being proficient with a recurve bow.

they will also shoot diffrent from off the shelf, or on a rest..
the string could also be rolling off your fingers and deflecting a little..
also harder to get the same anchor point & draw length (while under a strain) than a compound..

tougher than it looks for sure..
like david says, just takes a little time to get dialed in..
but definately worthwhile..


here is a link to the martin recurve manual, if you want to look at it
http://www.martinarchery.com/manuals...onalManual.pdf

Last edited by surveyor; August 9, 2007 at 10:41 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old August 9, 2007, 10:56 AM   #17
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That is extremely helpful, davlandrum..... ok, got my work cut out for me. The brace height is setting at 7.5", which is what is recommended for the bow (7.0 to 7.5"). I *was* shooting 125 gr field tips, but even then it seems to be a bit overspined. Perhaps I am not drawing all the way to 28", as you say - that's a definite possibility. Anyhow, I found out that the "spiderweb" arrows are actually the Carbon Express "Thunderstorm SE" or "Thunderstorm Spider Express":

http://www.carbonexpressarrows.com/c...s_090104.shtml

Again, two very knowledgeable traditional guys I've talked to today rave on and on about these arrows and how they fly like darts on just about any recurves up to 55 lbs, and I've already heard stories about deer, hogs, and elk harveted with these "kids arrows". So I'm going to buy 6 of these on Saturday. I'm also going to shoot the 400 Axises out of my compound. If they do not shoot well out of my compound, then I will ask the pro shop to "make it right" as you suggest - I suppose I cannot fault them much if the chart you consulted also says I was borderline, and so they needed to recommend one or the other. But of course, this pro shop does not do a lot of traditional stuff - they are more experts in compounds. I think I would be definitely definitely overspined with 100 gr tips, and just borderline with 125s - as I said, they shot reasonably well - they fishtailed badly at first until I raised the knocking point twice, but after I did that, they shot fairly well, but still a tad bit of fishtailing about 2 out of 3 shots. Part of this may be my release, but I don't think that's all of it. As I say, my friend who shot it can stack arrows up at 12 to 15 yards, and he was all over the place with it.

So thanks again very much - you too WBB and surveyor and stevelyn - and I'll report back after shooting the spider express arrows on Saturday.

Also, I cannot recommend this Impala bow - one of the limbs is already a bit twisted, and I strung it properly, so it should not have twisted so quickly.

P.S. I went with feathers instead of blazer vanes, after this was recommended to me by more than one person. They seem to be holding up just fine.

P.P.S. Can the nock alignment/vane alignment cause this fishtailing/inconsistency? I.e. Should I shoot cock feather up, cock feather down, cock feather left, or cock feather right? Or, should I adjust the nock to where one feather is just to the lower left of the shelf, one feather is to the lower right of the shelf (passing through the "corner")- I guess this type of alignment would be more or less "cock feather up".

Last edited by FirstFreedom; August 9, 2007 at 11:35 AM.
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Old August 9, 2007, 11:15 AM   #18
davlandrum
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FF - you'll get there, don't worry.

I shoot a tab (versus glove) forever, and just last year went to a glove.

I am not a fan of 3-under, but if it works and the guy who is helping you wants to coach it that way, go for it.
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Old August 9, 2007, 12:04 PM   #19
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Can you not shoot it a few times with a mechanical release to rule out something incorrect with your fingers?
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Old August 9, 2007, 12:06 PM   #20
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ZJ - excellent idea!
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Old August 9, 2007, 12:13 PM   #21
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Yes I can - that is indeed a very good idea - will try this evening.
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Old August 9, 2007, 12:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
Also, I cannot recommend this Impala bow - one of the limbs is already a bit twisted, and I strung it properly, so it should not have twisted so quickly.
I am sorry to hear that FF. Surely PSE will take care of that under warranty (at least I would hope so).

Thanks for the information though I have been looking at that bow for a while with the idea of purchasing a nice take down recurve.
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Old August 11, 2007, 11:55 PM   #23
FirstFreedom
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Update

Got the Thunderstorm SE (Carbon Express) arrows today. Six, though I now have only 4 left actually, since my dogs chewed up 2 of them already (went inside for half an hour ). Well, the word on the street was correct - they fly like darts - absolutely straight. Highly recommended for recurve shooters from 30 to 55 or even 60 lbs. Very pleased here now finally - I was even getting something more akin to a group than a pattern at 15.5 yards

http://www.cxarrows.com/arrows_thunderstorm_se.shtml

These are kids or "youth" arrows, but they work great. They DO, however, need to be fletched in a special way to work well - that is, they need oversized feathers for some reason - they look almost like half of a flu-flu feather, but rounded not square.

Also, I hear now that if I leave this bow strung up instead of unstrung, the twist of the limb will likely correct itself back to center or almost....
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