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Old June 5, 2007, 08:54 PM   #26
croyance
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Accidents "don't happen" because we constantly remind ourselves that guns are always loaded, no matter what we think. This is why we have so many accidental/negligent discharge threads.
If it were not Bill Jordan, but a person you didn't know of who picked up a gun and played with it, assuming it wasn't loaded, what would you have said?
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Old June 5, 2007, 10:45 PM   #27
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I don't want to put words in Doug's mouth, but I think what he is saying is that the law (and lawyers) doesn't seem to allow for guilt-free accidents as much as it used to. IOW, we are becoming such a litigious society that a true accident, like the one in discussion, would have been called negligent homicide and a civil suit would have followed the inevitable trial finding him guilty. Maybe even the handgun manufacturer would have been a co-defendant. IOW, yesterday: "people make mistakes" - today: "yeah, but they're gonna pay for them".

Having said that, I have to remind everyone, including myself, that this is the revolver forum. A modest amount of further discussion is fine, but any continued discussion should probably be in the L&P forum. The topic is fine, but the forum is wrong for the topic.
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Old June 5, 2007, 10:54 PM   #28
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^
Bingo.

But as you also said, let's keep this on revolvers.

What is the difference between this said Colt Border Patrol and an Official Police? Both are .38 Specials. Is it built on an E frame? From the book No Second Place Winner, he seems to highly favor the .357 magnum and think very little of the .38 Special. He does indeed as tipac indicated think it an adequate round but you could do better. Seems to think "shocking power" and "knockdown power" is something that comes from the caliber in order to knock somebody down.
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Old June 5, 2007, 11:29 PM   #29
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Quote:
As I recall, the Border Patrol tends to prefer the heavier caliber handguns since the guys in the field are said to see a lot of action with firearms in comparison with most LEO's.
Maybe they're more likely to deal with BGs in vehicles as the most common type of incident, and need something to punch though those car bodies. Seem to remember that was why the TX DPS switched to .357 SIG - for car shooting.
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Old June 6, 2007, 10:02 AM   #30
Doug.38PR
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Didn't the DPS, before they went to the .357 Sig, carry a S&W .357 Magnum Highway Patrolman? Wasn't the .357 Sig an attempt to duplicate the performance of the more powerful magnum revolver?
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Old June 6, 2007, 12:14 PM   #31
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If, by DPS, you are referring to the Texas Rangers, they have carte blanche as to personal weapons. If their website is true, they can have 357 SIG or anything else they want. There are only about a hundred and twenty of em. Hardly a world shaking number.
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Old June 6, 2007, 12:34 PM   #32
juliet charley
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Didn't the DPS, before they went to the .357 Sig, carry a S&W .357 Magnum Highway Patrolman? Wasn't the .357 Sig an attempt to duplicate the performance of the more powerful magnum revolver?
The TX DPS replaced the Model 28s with Model 686s. When the switched to autoloaders, the trooper had a choice of the P220 in .45 ACP or the P226 in 9x19. The P220 was selected by far more troopers than the P226.

The TX DPS was satisfied with the .45 ACP except for the issue of intermediate barrier performance. They tried several different varieties of .45 ACP, but none of the ammunition available in that time frame was deemed satisfactory.

SIGArms needed to promote the new (at that time) 357 SIG calibre and were right there with a sweetheart deal for the DPS. Since the 357 SIG delivered good intermediate barrier performance (relative to the .45 ACP ammunition of that day), the DPS made the switch.

In the decade-plus since, bullet design/engineering has progressed signficantly, and the premium .45 ACP loads of today are easily equaling the intermediate barrier peformance of the 357 SIG. Ten year later, there would be no need for the switch to the 357 SIG.

All of which really has nothing to do with this thread (except as a history lesson).
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Old June 6, 2007, 02:07 PM   #33
buzz_knox
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Quote:
IOW, we are becoming such a litigious society that a true accident, like the one in discussion, would have been called negligent homicide and a civil suit would have followed the inevitable trial finding him guilty. Maybe even the handgun manufacturer would have been a co-defendant. IOW, yesterday: "people make mistakes" - today: "yeah, but they're gonna pay for them".
Since a small amount of OT is authorized, it's not just that we are more litigious. It's that we've attempted to create a society where both victimhood and law (not justice) are enshrined. There has to be a villain and there has to be a law.
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Old September 21, 2011, 07:10 PM   #34
PennieRector
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Bill Jordan Accidental Shooting

Hello I am here to tell you that the story of Bill Jordan accidentally shooting a fellow Border Patrol officer is true. That man was my father, John A. Rector.
I was 13 years old and in the 8th grade, and that has been some 55 years ago, but my memory is very clear. According to the Coroner's inquest, this is the way it happened: Bill Jordan was showing a pistol, a 357 Magnum, to another man. They were in Bill's office at the headquarters of the San Diego Sector in San Ysidro, CA. The gun was unloaded initially, and Bill was demonstrating how he drew and fired. He then reloaded the gun and put it into a desk drawer.
The conversation continued, and forgetting he had loaded the gun he took it out of the drawer, aimed it at the wall and fired. My father was sitting at his desk on the other side of that wall. The bullet went through the wall and hit him in the head. He died about 3 hours later. There was no wrongful death suit, or anything like that. Bill was so upset that he had to be taken home under sedation and the next day I remember he and his wife coming to our house, and he sobbed as he told us how sorry he was. He and my Dad were friends.
I have often given my story as an example of how ANYONE can have an accident with a gun, no matter how expert you are with them.
My Dad did not see me complete my education, he was not there to walk me down the aisle when I married, nor did he see me graduate from college. He never knew that I had a successful career. I don't hate Bill Jordan, nor bear him any ill will. I expect he is gone from this earth now too.
I just wanted to set the record straight for those of you in this forum and elsewhere who think this might have been a false story.
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Old September 21, 2011, 09:11 PM   #35
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Pennie, thank you so much for sharing this.
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Old September 21, 2011, 11:51 PM   #36
SIGSHR
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I am saddened to learn this story is Bill Jordan was always one of the Great Shooters to me. But the Rector family suffered a grievous loss.
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Old September 22, 2011, 03:26 AM   #37
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An old thread but worth being revived. Thank you Ms. Rector.

A few years back Mike Venturino mentioned the incident in an article he wrote for one of the gun mags, I don't recall which one. He caught quite a bit of heck from a good many people for even mentioning the incident. Some did not believe it to be true. Others knew it to be true but believed that the telling of it was a stain on the memory of Jordan and an insult to the man.

It is a story that should be told now and then with respect to the memory of all involved.

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Old September 22, 2011, 10:44 AM   #38
Andy Taylor
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Pennie, thank you for sharing. I am sorry for the loss you suffered at such a young age. God Bless.
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Old September 22, 2011, 11:33 AM   #39
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Wow, excellent first post!

My condolences to your family, Pennie.
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Old September 22, 2011, 11:52 AM   #40
sabre.45
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Pennie, thank you for taking the time to share the truth behind this story with all of us. It is a painfully stark reminder of how quickly and dangerously things can turn when even the most experienced let their concentration lapse for a moment. Bill Jordan was a hero to many of us here and that he was involved in such a tragic occurence is very sobering. I submit that your father was a true hero as well, and am sorry we in the shooting community didn't get to know about him in a different manner.

I am very sorry for your loss 55 years ago.
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Old September 22, 2011, 11:53 AM   #41
Nanuk
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Pennie,

Thank You for sharing your story. I have been a Border Patrol Agent for 23 years. One of my friends, dad was an agent and worked with your dad and Bill Jordan. The Border Patrol was a very small tight knit group until after 9/11. When I came in in 1988 there were about 3000-3500 agents nationwide.

Up until the mid 1980's agents could pretty much carry what they wanted.
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Old September 22, 2011, 02:23 PM   #42
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Sorry about the loss of your father, Penny.
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Old September 22, 2011, 04:55 PM   #43
ISP 5353
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Thank you Pennie. I am so sorry for your loss!
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Old September 22, 2011, 10:46 PM   #44
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Unfortunately many law enforcement officers have lost their lives in accidental shootings. Some have accidentally shot themselves while many others have been killed by well meaning fellow officers. I remember hearing about a TX DPS trooper who shot one of his Captains in a training accident in the 1980's. They were practicing a technique and the gun was loaded. No matter how tragic these things are, I truly do not think any lesser of the person who accidentally causes the death unless it is truly reckless. It was an oversight in several aspects and it cost a good man his life. I can truly empathize with all parties involved. Who hasn't made a mistake with a firearm? Most of us have been truly lucky to not have had an accident. When I read Bill Jordan's No Second Place Winner, I do not think any less of him knowing that he accidentally killed somone. My deepest condolences to Pennie Rector and the rest of the Rector family.
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