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Old March 2, 2007, 09:16 AM   #1
taylorce1
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I've Been Called Out!!

I seem to have offended a poster on here who asked me by PM for my load data. He read a post I had in the hunting forum about me shooting my deer this last season at 560 yards. This was on an ethics question and long range hunting.

The question:
Quote:
I read your post where you said that you have a good load worked up for your 270

I was just wondering what it was?
My answer:
Quote:
I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you. Seriously though I won't give you my load because it is over max load by Sierra. I will tell you this in my Parker Hale 1200 I'm getting a little better than 3100 fps with either IMR/H4831 using Federal brass and CCI 200 primers. I'm not getting any pressure signs at all in my rifle. I also live over 6000 ft above sea level so I automaticly get a little extra speed out of my cartridges. I use 130 grain Sierra SBT Game Kings as my bullet of choice. I alway practice with what I hunt with.

I hope this helps but you will have to do a little work to find what works in your rifle. Mine just happens to like it a little hot.
His Reply:
Quote:
I hear you talking, but you can't come in.

Look, I was a munitions specialist and I know all about handloads.

The crony and stuff we used was state of the art.

As far as you thinking that you did something that no one else has done in the past.

I highly doubt it.

I have published accuracy loads for my 270 Winchester time and time again. It is nothing more than 55.5 Grains of IMR 4350.

So looking at my charts and all that I have done with the 270 back n forth trying to get something hotter - more accurate. It didn't happen.

You can buck the velocity the whole way to 4000 fps in that caliber of gun with that weight of bullet.

You can run the chamber pressure well past 58,000 CUP if you want.

It will go faster, but the chances if it being more accurate is highly doubtful.

In my book, it says that the highest that they went was 56.5 gr. of IMR 4831 and the speed was 3080 at sea level.

So if your claim is that your bullet is traveling faster at 6000 ft above sea level. Then that is just about a duplicate load.

You can get 60 gr of IMR 7828 in that case and it is a compressed load.

The rated speed is 3140 ft per a sec.

Just that it isn't as accurate as the IMR 4350.

ok.

To go one further, you can use the IMR 4320 with much success with 45 .1 gr of powder and you can increase chamber pressure by using Magnum Primers.

The more powder you put in the shell, doesn't mean that it will go faster or be more accurate.

You have to have a long enough barrel to burn the powder that you use and you have to have a action strong enough to handle the chamber pressure.

So please don't insult me here.
Now the poster did not bold the last sentence I did, because I didn't think that in my orginal reply I said anything terribly offensive. I haven't sent any replys to this poster as of yet and have gotten anoter PM.

Next Reply:
Quote:
We did a study about 10 years ago and found out what works at the range doesn't always work out in the field.

We had problems with core seperation with the Sierra Game Kings that was so bad that we found chunks of lead inside deer and chunks of the jacket inside deer and against the skin of the far side of the animal.

The hide is elastic and the bullet expands and seperates and falls apart inside the deer and hits the hide on the far side and does not penetrate the whole way through the deer.

Most if not all the times, a well placed shot killed the deer reguardless. But the couple of times that we had to chase a deer was more than enough to look at other options.

We found that even though the Hornady bullets were cheaper at the store. They actually penetrated better in hunting situations and had better results.

The Hornadys will fly every bit as good at a range of up to 300 yards. So if the reason that you chose Sierra's was for their accuracy. Then you were lead down the wrong road.

It isn't until after you get past the range of 300 yards that the Match Kings and Game Kings were more accurate. Even then the amount of difference was so small that it isn't worth mentioning.

I will put it to you this way. When my dad goes to shoot. He wears the hat that Hornady gave me.
When he reloads, he uses the book that Hornady gave me. When he goes to buy bullets, he buys Hornadys.

This is how loyal he is.

When I was just a boy and my Uncle on my moms side turned my dad on to reloading. My Uncle had a reloading press in his basement and reloaded about every other week. My Uncle even shot his 44 Magnum in the basement for practice.

My dad had some reloading supplies at my Uncles house and when hunting season came. My dad wanted to reload some shells for hunting. My Uncle gave my dads bullets to another person - in a deal where he reloaded some shells for the man.

They went down the street, on a Sunday, the week of Thanksgiving. The gun shop only had SPEER'S.
My dad refused to load his shells with Speer bullets.

Even though Jack Oconner and Elmer Keith and all the big names in hunting used SPEER Bullets.

My dad thought that unless it said Sierra and unless they were Boat Tail bullets that they wouldn't kill a deer.

My dad has two RCBS presses, and also the LEE press that my Uncle used to reload his shells.
If I was to tell you that all he uses is the LEE press to reload his hunting ammo, you would laugh at him.

For someone that set in his ways to change and come right out and say that there was something better than the Sierra's would be like the pope saying that he isn't going to be Catholic no more.
I think this guy must have stayed up all night typing these PM's because I sent my orginal reply to him about 8:30 pm. I don't mind sharing my componets but I really don't like giving the grains of powder I use unless it is well within the published specs by bullet or powder manufactures. I call it CYA!! I spend time at the bench and range developing my loads but why do some guys think that I have something top seceret, because I pulled off the shot of my lifetime.

Sorry about the long post but I kind of have to laugh at this guy. I mean to get so upset about me not giving a powder charge. The thing is I don't really know any of the posters on this forum personally except for Art, and I've only met him once, so sorry if I decided to play it safe. Sorry for the long post.
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Old March 2, 2007, 09:35 AM   #2
Art Eatman
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Some people worry a lot. Ulcer candidates.

As far as the Gamekings: During a discussion here at TFL some years back, a Sierra rep joined in. I had a .30 150-grain SPBT blow up in a deer's neck. I'm getting around 3,000 ft/sec from the load. It was a 30-yard shot.

The Sierra guy said it would not have happened with the flat based 150. The jacket is a tad thicker. The BTs work best with an MV of around 2,800, or impact velocities below 2,700 or so. Well, that makes sense to me, since I've never had an blowup out at 100 or 200 yards with the BT bullet on a dozen or so deer.

So, Taylorce, I'd guess your correspondent's blowup was via the use of a BT bullet driven faster than the design was meant for.

, Art
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Old March 2, 2007, 10:24 AM   #3
sanson
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OK, I might have been stretching a little when I posted last week that my levergun shoots 1.5moa with handloads. somebody got kinda mad and I couldn't figure out why. like those fish stories, some people laugh, others wanna beat you up.
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Old March 2, 2007, 10:48 AM   #4
Mike Irwin
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"Look, I was a munitions specialist and I know all about handloads."

Huh?

"It will go faster, but the chances if it being more accurate is highly doubtful."

Uhm... Whatever. I guess what his rifle likes/can do immediately sets the standard for what your rifle likes/can do?

People like this I normally drop onto my ignore list.
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Old March 2, 2007, 12:02 PM   #5
taylorce1
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Quote:
People like this I normally drop onto my ignore list.
I don't want to do this because some of the stuff he says is so off the wall it makes me laugh. What is really funny is he is so serious about it. I just sent him a PM to join us in this discussion so hopefully he will join in.

Quote:
I didn't mean to insult you, I just don't give out Max Loads or over Max Load info to anyone. Call it my CYA clause. If you want to question my loads that work in my rifle then come out here and shoot it. BTW I posted all of our PM's in the reloading forum if you want to defend yourself. Just because it works for me doesn't mean it will work for you.

Last edited by taylorce1; March 2, 2007 at 12:33 PM.
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Old March 2, 2007, 04:22 PM   #6
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Lord,
I understand Brand loyalty but Dang thats outright too far IMO. I'm Brand Loyal to Chevy trucks but I have rode in/like/have owned Many others with out Smack talking the Crap outta them. Just because a person (who-ever it may be) is Brand Loyal Dont mean that there is no other option to choose from and that regardless of anything Brand-X is Best.....

I bet he's really ****** at the Fact that Ice Cream comes in any other flavor then what he Buys...

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Old March 2, 2007, 05:10 PM   #7
Shoney
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taylorce1
I’ve hand-loaded for 46 years now. A few of the numerous rifles I’ve developed hunting loads for have had accuracy loads well over max. I found it interesting about your 270 and 4831 loads. My daughters 270 with 130 & 140 gr and IMR4831 was most accurate over max, consistent five shot 5/8” groups. Using 4320 & 4350 got equal accuracy but not near the velocity.

As far as hunting bullets go, my immediate and extended family did lots of testing on game. 30-50 years ago, it was possible to have 1 elk tag, up to 7 deer tags, and as many as 12 antelope tags per person in a given year. Since we processed our own meat, terminal results of bullets were easy to see.

Considering the ability to take game reliably without bullet failure, for factory ammo, Rem Core-Lokt was unparalleled. Reloaders only had Hornady, Nosler, Speer, and Sierra available at that time. For deer & antelope, Hornady was the best, Speers were very good, and Sierras were like throwing hand grenades. Sierras bullets today are much better. For elk, Nosler Partitions. The Nosler Partitions are used for hunting trophy mule deer, but not for general deer/antelope because they ruin more meat.

For accuracy, Sierra gave the most accurate loads, but because of the “grenade factor”, we discontinued using them on big game, but used them extensively for varmints. Hornady is our bullet of choice for hunting deer/antelope because of their game-getting ability and accuracy. For elk, Nosler Partitions have superior accuracy and superior game-getting ability.

For your munitions expert:barf: , I can only sound a chortle s****** giggle guffaw.
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Old March 2, 2007, 06:58 PM   #8
taylorce1
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Shoney,

I've only been reloading for about 10 years now and I've had very good luck with Sierra bullets. I've been loading the the 130 grain SBT for about 8 years and haven't had a bullet failure yet. I've never had one gernade on me but I haven't shot as many big game animals as you probably have.

My .270 has only accounted for 4 pronghorns, 2 cow elk, 2 wild pigs, and 1 mule deer. For every animal except the elk I've used the 130 grain Sierra SBT, on the elk I used 150 grain Nosler Partitions. Most of the time I hunt deer with a muzzle loader this past season I just happened to draw a rifle tag. I've never recovered a bullet or bullet fragment from the game I've processed after shooting them with the 130 grain Sierra bullets.

As far as my deer being a trophy it will be the first mount I ever had so I guess it is a trophy for me, but I never had him scored. I'm pretty happy with him. Check him out here http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=226733, I sure hope the mount is done soon.
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Old March 2, 2007, 09:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Conditions were ideal as there was no wind to speak of and the deer was silhouetted on top a hill with a full broadside shot
I re-read your original post, and "WILL" call you on the shot you took.

What was beyond your target? That rifle can reach over 3 miles, and that just isn't a responsible shot.

I myself have a very hard time estimating range. so i wouldn't question you on that. We shoot steel at 500y offhand w/o sling, so with a good fast round it will work.( i am thinking of the new super magnums, not the traditional cal's)
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Old March 2, 2007, 10:15 PM   #10
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This is too funny (in a sad way). I have reloaded for over 35 years. For 20 of those years, I shot a lot of different rifles and did a lot of varminting and built rifles. I developed loads for a lot of the rifles I built, and made notes as to the results. I hunted with and spoke to a few of the old-time wildcatters, and tried to learn from their experience as I went along. Hopefully I did. That doesn't make me an expert, it just gives me some experience, like you. I have also gotten pretty shy about telling anyone what my loads are. I will tell you that a lot of "experts" claim to have all the answers, but will seldom admit that each gun is different and every combination of components gives different results. For example, I chronographed the same load out of five different .22-250s and got widely varying velocities and standard deviations.

So if some guy claims to have all the answers, ignore him. If he feels insulted because you won't tell him everything you know, or your experience is different than what his books tell him should happen, so what? Or you can tell everyone his name so they will know he is a blowhard. Chances are they already know.
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Old March 2, 2007, 10:19 PM   #11
The Gamemaster
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- Is that a threat?


Seriously though I won't give you my load because it is over max load by Sierra. [PHP]I will tell you this in my Parker Hale 1200 I'm getting a little better than 3100 fps with either IMR/H4831 using Federal brass and CCI 200 primers[/PHP].

I'm not getting any pressure signs at all in my rifle.

I also live over 6000 ft above sea level so I automaticly get a little extra speed out of my cartridges.

I use 130 grain Sierra SBT Game Kings as my bullet of choice. - He uses ?

I alway practice with what I hunt with. - Always is mis-spelled.

This is getting good.

. I don't mind sharing my componets but I really don't like giving the grains of powder I use unless it is well within the published specs by bullet or powder manufactures. I call it CYA!! I spend time at the bench and range developing my loads but why do some guys think that I have something top seceret, because I pulled off the shot of my lifetime.

So where is this post going?
I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you.

We had problems with core seperation with the Sierra Game Kings that was so bad that we found chunks of lead inside deer and chunks of the jacket inside deer and against the skin of the far side of the animal.

The hide is elastic and the bullet expands and seperates and falls apart inside the deer and hits the hide on the far side and does not penetrate the whole way through the deer.

Most if not all the times, a well placed shot killed the deer reguardless. But the couple of times that we had to chase a deer was more than enough to look at other options.

We found that even though the Hornady bullets were cheaper at the store. They actually penetrated better in hunting situations and had better results.

The Hornadys will fly every bit as good at a range of up to 300 yards. So if the reason that you chose Sierra's was for their accuracy. Then you were lead down the wrong road.

It isn't until after you get past the range of 300 yards that the Match Kings and Game Kings were more accurate. Even then the amount of difference was so small that it isn't worth mentioning.

ART ETMAN posted;
As far as the Gamekings: During a discussion here at TFL some years back, a Sierra rep joined in. I had a .30 150-grain SPBT blow up in a deer's neck. I'm getting around 3,000 ft/sec from the load. It was a 30-yard shot.

The Sierra guy said it would not have happened with the flat based 150. The jacket is a tad thicker. The BTs work best with an MV of around 2,800, or impact velocities below 2,700 or so. Well, that makes sense to me, since I've never had an blowup out at 100 or 200 yards with the BT bullet on a dozen or so deer.

So, Taylorce, I'd guess your correspondent's blowup was via the use of a BT bullet driven faster than the design was meant for.



I didn't mean to insult you, I just don't give out Max Loads or over Max Load info to anyone. Call it my CYA clause. If you want to question my loads that work in my rifle then come out here and shoot it. BTW I posted all of our PM's in the reloading forum if you want to defend yourself. Just because it works for me doesn't mean it will work for you.

So where do you get a over max load with a 130 gr bullet and 4831 powder?

In my book, it says that the highest that they went was 56.5 gr. of IMR 4831 and the speed was 3080 at sea level.

You are quoting that you are getting slightly higher than 3100 fps - and that you are at 6000 feet elevation and that it makes you bullets fly faster.

Right there is your 3100 feet per a second and you still havent gone past max. So someone is talking out their arse hole here..

So basically what you are saying is that you know more than the Sierra rep = or that you were not planning on harvesting a deer at anything less than 300 yards?

Your magic powder is shooting hotter than what it did at the factory in a test weapon shot by IMR.

You laugh at someone that told you what was what and posted what he said to you in private and then published it without his permission.

You are not real bright are you?

It was your GANG Mentality that got Jim Zumbo fired, only it backfired because the anti hunters petitioned one of Ted Nugents sponsors and now he is at risk of loosing sponsorship money by trying to take Jim Zumbo's defense.

Here is what Ted Nugent posted in his blog today;

My BloodBrothers, I have never asked for personal assistance on my own behalf, however, DPMS Panther Arms claim they are getting hammered by the antigunners amongst us (lunatic fringe for sure) to abandon any relationship with me or my TV show for my stand to upgrade Jim Zumbo into a pro-DPMS rifle guy. HUH!!! Unbelievable for sure, but the cannibals amongst us are beyond xplanation. I respectfully request any of you who care, to write a brief, POLITE note to DPMS boss Randy Luth

Keep it up and you will just make one more person infuriated that will send unwelcome responses to the people that support your habit until they take away all your terrorist weapons.
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Old March 3, 2007, 07:47 AM   #12
Dogjaw
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Is there some past issues coming out? I'm laughing at comments saying a 560 yard shot is irresponsible. All you have to do is hit where you aim. If you can do it, go for it. If you can't, then don't. It's that simple. Just because "I" haven't shot at 560 yards and have doubts about my immediate marksmanship and rifle's ability, doesn't mean someone else can't or shouldn't do it. It's funny that the argument changed from the range, to the powder, to the bullet, to the caliber, etc. A faster bullet does not make it more accurate. If you can hit it at 560 yards, keep doing it Taylorce1. By the way, good shot. I have found that everyone who posted falls into 1 of the 3 listed in my signature. Which are you?
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Old March 3, 2007, 10:19 AM   #13
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I love these threads. I've been fiddling with my Winchester Model 70 featherweight for three years trying to get better than 2" @100 yards. I think I'll try to sneak up a bit with some IMR 4831. In most of my rifles I've had best accuracy with Hornady, but I'm a real novice with rifle loading. I did go slightly over specs with some Varget and Nosler 95 grain bullets in my .243 featherweight with very nice accuracy, but I'm always uncomfortable going over published max loads.
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Old March 3, 2007, 02:12 PM   #14
mrawesome22
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If he knows all about handloads and has so much experience with .270Win, why does he need your data anyway? Geez.
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Old March 4, 2007, 01:43 AM   #15
ziggy222
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it seems to me that he's trying to trick you into giving him the full load data.maybe he thinks at some point you will crack and post the load in order to prove yourself.sad thing is that his tactics probably work often or he would'nt be still trying.
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Old March 4, 2007, 11:47 AM   #16
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Actually .... long range shooting and hunting has alot of historical roots. Men who owned Whitworth and other long range shooting rifles used to commonly shoot targets and animals out to 1000 yards, and that was with frontstuffer type guns !! Shots way beyond 500 yards were common with the buffalo hunters. Pope, and Pope-Ballard gain twist rifling was purposely designed for extremely long range shooting. Todays guns and bullets are far better in accuracy and design than rifles 100 years or longer ago. Consequently long range shooting of animals with modern components and guns should kiil much more humanely and accurately. I have several friends that hunt out west for antelope and mule deer, and 400 yards is where their rifles are zeroed, and 500 yard shots are not uncommon. My brother was talking about going hunting this year out west, and the guide told him that he'll need his .270 to bullseye at 400 yards, and to expect shots at farther distances. Long range shooting isn't unethical, as long as the hunter does his part to ensure killing shot placement thru practice. Reloads may well out-perform factory loads at those distances.
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