The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 20, 2007, 01:15 AM   #26
PinnedAndRecessed
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2004
Posts: 449
Quote:
I won't pack a firearm into a house of God. If I get robbed, well so be it. I'd never discharge a firearm in a church.
It's interesting that we're equating the church "building" with the "church."

Whatever synonyms are used to refer to the "church", viz., "family" or "body", all refer to the people. Not a building.

In fact, the word for "church" in the Greek (the language the Bible is written in), is ekklasia. Literally translated, it is "the called out." I.e., those who are "called out" of the world to come into the church of Christ. (Rom. 16:16)

The people are the church. Not the building. The building is just where the people happen to be when they worship. Or sometimes eat. Or maybe even play games. But there is nothing holy about bricks and lumber.
PinnedAndRecessed is offline  
Old January 20, 2007, 11:07 PM   #27
tshadow6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 26, 2005
Posts: 619
CC in church

I make it a habit to be armed as often as possible, including Church. A few weeks ago, my Parish Priest mildly criticized Islam, so I'm expecting something to happen.
tshadow6 is offline  
Old January 21, 2007, 04:01 AM   #28
banditt007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2006
Posts: 692
Not for anything, some here are stating that if the guy was killing/shooting people then they would step in, but if it was a simple robbery they would not.

Now i pose this question to those that have said that...

The guy is waving a gun around demanding $, first 5 people he hits up, just give him the cash/jewlry no problem. next guy can't find his wallet ect...BG has had the gun trained on each and every person he robbed so far. BG gets ****** that old man can't find his wallet fast enough and shoots him.

Would you feel bad now, that you didnt do anything for the first 30 seconds, b/c you THOUGHT it was just a robbery and no one would be injured?

And how do you tell if the guys came in to kill people, AFTER they start shooting and killing people? You're already too late you could have possibly stopped it well before any innocents got intentionally shot.

The whole point is, is that when someone points a gun at someone else, with the intent to rob/kill/force that person to do something ect. the time it takes for the BG to pull the trigger is in the blink of an eye! You must assume that the BG is going to shoot as soon as the gun is pointed at anyone

My opinion of course.....
banditt007 is offline  
Old January 21, 2007, 01:46 PM   #29
Captain38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2004
Posts: 171
CCW in Church???

Up front, let me say that I have scrupulously obeyed the laws concerning going armed and as a retired law enforcement officer have done so most of my adult life.

There have recently been church robberies in several states and over the years instances of armed gunmen killing and wounding persons inside places of worship. In NONE of these situations did members BELIEVE that something like that could EVER happen THERE!

Google "Wedgwood Baptist Church Shootings" and read what occurred on 9-22-99 in Ft. Worth, TX BEFORE you decide what your position on carrying concealed in church should be.

Last edited by Captain38; January 21, 2007 at 02:50 PM.
Captain38 is offline  
Old January 21, 2007, 04:31 PM   #30
qwik
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2004
Location: nc
Posts: 151
just a matter of time and BG has your piece then what , pls dont hurt me , i would not hand it over without a struggle. if you gotto go at least youre in the right ous place
__________________
havejeepwilltravel [0lllllll0]
qwik is offline  
Old January 29, 2007, 03:05 AM   #31
miconoakisland
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 30, 2005
Location: Oak Island, NC
Posts: 134
Righteous Shoot

If a person comes into a church, for whatever reason, and is waving a firearm around while demanding money, he is threatening great bodily harm to everyone there. I can't think of a more "righteous" shoot than to protect those that are targeted simply because they are in a house of worship!

I would sacrifice any jail time to save fellow parishioners from deadly force from a person that neither respects fellow humans or a higher being's place of worship.

I will not attempt a shot unless I am sure of the target. My church is about 70 yds by 40 yds. with a couple alcoves. The chances of the miscreant being positioned without parishioners between or beyond him and I, is so very remote that I doubt I could get positioned in time without being spotted due to the reaction of fellow parishioners. (I sit at the outside end of a pew always). But just my duck-walking with a firearm up the line of pews would generate reactions from people, thereby drawing attention to myself and risking a panicked outburst from the gunman (or gunmen).

It would be just too much chaos and panic to be able to react responsibly unless in the perfect spot to react. But, given the opportunity, I would fire ASAP, but then only because I was was armed in church to begin with. Way too many stars have to line up for it ever to happen for me to save my church goers, and I just hope a fellow packer doesn't just start firing in the general direction of the evil-doer to make him force his hand and start firing randomly!

Firing in a place with hundreds of people in a tight place is always going to be bad news, whether it is a good guy or a bad guy, or both, doing the firing!

Do I carry in church? Always.

Someone intent on doing harm upon others has no respect for laws, religion, humans, etc.. He is a predator seeking out the easiest prey.
I will not be that prey, nor will I allow those around me to be easy prey, as much as I can.
miconoakisland is offline  
Old January 29, 2007, 07:50 AM   #32
tegemu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2005
Location: Orange Park, Fla
Posts: 1,019
The news this morning is reporting an armed robbery of a church in Ohio, by a man and a woman. They were tackled by the ushers as they were attemting to escape. Not real bright tackling armed robbers, it would have been much better if they were stopped by a concealed carrier. I believe they said that a parishoner was injured during the robbery. Church robberies are getting more and more frequent.
__________________
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence in their behalf. - George Orwell
tegemu is offline  
Old January 29, 2007, 07:55 PM   #33
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,563
Talk about a robbery gone bad, . . . Columbus, Ohio catholic church that was target of robbers on Sunday 1/28:

1) Bg's (guy & gal) targeted a chuch on a street that is known for shootings, muggings, beatings, you name it: every one of those parishioners has been through that (or something like it), . . . so the only big deal was it followed them to church.

2) The guy will have several years to brag how he had a gun, . . . yet he got caught, beat up, and sat upon by 4 senior citizens who didn't want to put up with his schenanigans, . . . gun or no gun, . . . just grabbed him like they was strong safeties and he was the quarterback on the other team.

3) Pastor said he knew for sure they weren't church going folk, . . . didn't bother to ask for the collection plate full of greenbacks, . . . went for the purses laying in the pews.

May not be funny to most, . . . but sure made my day

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old January 29, 2007, 10:49 PM   #34
tepin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2006
Location: MN
Posts: 114
God loves guns.
Being in a church is like being in a mall; crowded with lots of people. I would try to duck out a back door. Two people taking on an entire congregation? Read the thread about protecting a 3rd party. If you are one of 100 people and in the back of the room, are you really in immediate risk with 99 bodies in front of you? The guys have a knife and a 6, 10 or 15 round handgun or a 6000 round chain gun they just lifted from the National Guard? How many lefties in the house? How many would testify they didn't feel in danger of death or GBH and that the guys with weapons just needed cash for food and a warm place to sleep and that you were the real aggressor because you could have run out the back door or given them the 15.00 in your wallet. The stigma associated with taking a gun into church will by itself probably bury you with a jury, regardless of how many others carry in the “house of god”.

Ask yourself this:
“Is this situation worth the $50K to $100K it will cost me for a criminal defense or if a civil case is lost, how will I like making a lifetime of payments to someone I hate”.

I have carried in church and I would have no problem shooting someone but my life or my wife's life has to be in immediate and unavoidable jeopardy of death or GBH before I will pull the trigger.

If you want to be really safe and not worry about any of this, attend service via the TV or a pod cast and donate via paypal.

good luck.
tepin is offline  
Old February 2, 2007, 01:07 PM   #35
rhino
Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 80
Our physical bodies are a gift from God. We have not only the right but the responsibility to defend ourselves, our families, and our friends from predators. It doesn't matter where.
rhino is offline  
Old February 3, 2007, 10:40 AM   #36
Fxtrt5
Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2007
Posts: 22
Situation defined as public gathering (Church); innocent civilians present, with two armed criminals. My reaction: Observation only. Law enforcement issue; supply LE with descriptions of criminals.
Five basic tactical considerations prior to Use of Deadly Force: Choice of Time; Choice of weapon, Choice of numbers (in this case; two individuals), Choice of Location, and Intent (robbery; rather than terrorisistic massacre, say)...My response would be patience, and memorizing details for later testimony. If (hypothetically), it were assigned to me to neutralize threat, I would seek to align as many of the five advantages listed above prior to making any sort of confrontation. As it stands, the criminals hold the tactical high-ground. Track to open ground, free field of fire; at conditions of my advantage. Thankfully, I was long-ago relieved of my post. God bless Law Enforcement.
(811501-A-1: Attack Sentry Dog Handler)
Fxtrt5 is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 12:00 AM   #37
jrothWA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2006
Posts: 1,955
Look-up the "Columbus Dispatch",...

out of Ohio. (Yes, the same place that banned Assualt weapons what ever they are) about the two clowns that robbed a church during Mass, four SENIOR men engaged the clowns until the LEO's arrived.

from the www.mcrgo.org website

The Michigan Catholic church made the mistake of endorsing the ballot initiative to vote on Michigan CPL law when it passed, did so from the pulpit.
Needless to say their tithe diminished.
When a Catholic group wanted to get petition signed for voting on same sex proposal, the church wouldn't let them. Appears they got leaned on from thier liberal partners.
jrothWA is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 02:31 AM   #38
Limeyfellow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2005
Posts: 1,380
Churches and other houses of worship have been targets for just about as long as they been around. They were shocked back when the viking would raid the places and take all the silver. No difference nowadays. They unfortantly make easy targets most the time and have plenty of cash and other goodies present to make it a robbery target.

Many churches now, including the one I go to train a security team. At our church that I occasionally go to here in NC they have on hand a couple of armed ushers and some tasers for such siturations, though the people on the team are made to go through training at a professional centre and required to perform practice drills and so on. Of course its not like they can use deadly force to stop a robbery here, but a pyscho going off needs to be stopped.
Limeyfellow is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 06:43 AM   #39
ziggygunsmith
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2007
Posts: 5
My first statemen as a new member.

Although it wouned up in another columb for ammo. it aplies here also and in most cases it will apply through out life , befor my input into f.l.f. as a tech or better, gunsmith. i,ll repete it hear.. as a little boy my mother taught me to. ( " Live and let live ") Think about that.... Ziggygunsmith
ziggygunsmith is offline  
Old February 8, 2007, 07:33 PM   #40
Big Don
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 13, 2006
Location: Hayden, ID
Posts: 375
"i,ll repete it hear.. as a little boy my mother taught me to. ( " Live and let live ") Think about that.... Ziggygunsmith"
Welcome to TFL but I'm not too sure what you mean here. Are you saying you wouldn't shoot a BG who's pointing a weapon at you and sure seems like he means to harm you? That's what this thread is about: self defense and the defense of others who can't defend themselves while in a house of worship.
Just wondering
__________________
[SIZE="3"][SIZE="2"]Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
"If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it?"- Benjamin Franklin
Big Don is offline  
Old February 13, 2007, 02:44 AM   #41
jcims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2005
Location: Ahyah
Posts: 289
This is the guy that got tackled by the four parishoners



Armed and HUGE!
jcims is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13558 seconds with 9 queries