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Old June 26, 2006, 04:39 PM   #51
D.S. Brown
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As many of my instructors have said, "anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice."

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Old June 26, 2006, 05:44 PM   #52
Ausserordeutlich
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Stephen 426: Do you consider yourself to be a good defense attorney? How much is your legal advice worth? What was your standing in your law school class? How many years have you practiced criminal defense law? In what states are you licensed? Do you give a discount for TFL members?
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Old June 26, 2006, 06:09 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ausserordeutlich
Do you consider yourself to be a good defense attorney? How much is your legal advice worth? What was your standing in your law school class? How many years have you practiced criminal defense law? In what states are you licensed? Do you give a discount for TFL members?
What is the point of your post? To play big shot lawyer? I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on TV. Johnnie Cochran is dead so you had better find someone else. He cost OJ Simpson over $3.5 million. But hey, if you want to place your freedom in the hands of some rookie public defender, then go right ahead. If I read correctly, the NRA will also help you out if you are a member, but I doubt they would really go out on a limb in a questionable shooting.

Anyway, my post was made in response to ATW525 comment that "bullets are cheap". What jury would not at least consider the possibility that the defendant was actually guilty of murder with a statement like that? Pretty much everything I have read indicates that you should not say anything to the police without an attorney present and if forced to speak, say you shot to stop the threat. If you have some better advice, please share.

By the way, I thought the term criminal attorney was redundant.
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Old June 27, 2006, 02:53 AM   #54
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Well, I sort of resemble that remark. Yes, I have a JD. Yes, I have worked in the DA's office, as an intern, for 6 months.

What is the law's, and the DA's concern: Was the person in threat of their life, and, where they justified in shooting? After that, it's pretty much moot. We REALLY want to get the bad guys, and, if we have a guy with a 20 page rap sheet, and someone shoots him, we aren't going after the shooter, if it was justified. The entire Ayoob, handloads, multiple shots, etc. stuff never made it into consideration.

Believe it or not, most of the guys we dealt with where clearly criminals, carrierwise, and, if someone actually had a gun, in San Francisco, ownership is now illegal, pending Supreme Court ruling, and shot one, the DA has far better things to do then prosecute innocent people, when so many are clearly criminals. Why waste time on a borderline case, when you have tons of really bad people to put away?

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Old June 27, 2006, 01:46 PM   #55
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Socrates,

I fully understand that DA's have better things to do than prosecute innocent people. What happens if the person you shot happens to not have a major rap sheet either because he he is new to the world of crime or he just hasn't been caught yet? Then would a DA consider the possibility that emptying a full magazine into the guy might have been a little excessive and question the whole self defense arguement? I'm not saying it will happen, but I'm pretty sure that it will increase the likelihood of happening. You guys can do what you like, but I'm stopping as soon as the threat is over. I just hope I can do it with a few well placed shots rather than pumping the guy full of lead.
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Old June 27, 2006, 04:42 PM   #56
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With my SIG on me...self defense starts with one long hard trigger pull followed immediately by 14 more shorter, easier trigger pulls...or as many as needed until threat is no longer a threat.
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Old June 27, 2006, 05:41 PM   #57
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FWIW I have spent almost 10 years as the investigator (read "office cop") for a PA office. The prime considerations in evaluating cases like this go something like this-
  • Would a reasonable person have felt in danger of death or serious bodily injury, either for themselves or for a third party whom they were acting in defense of?
  • Is the use of force in this instance otherwise justified under the law?
  • Did the shooter do anything to contribute to the breach of peace that precipitated the act of defense?
  • Were there other options available besides the use of deadly force? (Retreat, etc.-may not apply in your state.)
  • Was the use of defensive force immediate to the threat, or did the actor leave and return with a weapon and 'restart' the dispute?
  • Was the force applied beyond the point where it was justified under the law?

This is not a comprehensive list, but in my experience these questions almost always get asked- whether the person using deadly force is Joe Citizen, or Joe Cop (except the 5th one). Nobody in my experience has ever considered whether the ammunition used in a clearly defensive shooting was ball, reloads, JHP or whatever. This includes 12 years of law enforcement experience beyond the PA office. Premidated murder is another matter entirely, and the ammo selected by the shooter is fair game.

I will suggest that pumping rounds into someone after the 'fight is out of them' is a good way to wind up in prison. I have seen it happen.

I will also suggest that the political environment in your area may be such that the DA or PA is 'gunning' for people who use firearms on other people, whether they needed shot or not. What 'goes' in west Texas may not 'go' in New Yawk Sitty. State laws are different throughout the US, as are the views of the 'powers that be' regarding the defensive use of firearms.

It shouldn't be this way, but it is what it is. You'd do well to consider this before living or hanging around in environs where your right to self defense is questioned on its face.

If you have questions about your specific area, write or call your state Attorney General's office. Ask for a response in writing, or a reference to the statute that applies in self defense/use of dealy force cases.
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Old June 28, 2006, 02:24 AM   #58
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New to this site.

Theres alot of talk about pistols, mainly because that's what people keep on their nightstand. I keep a shotgun under the matress. 870 Express Magnum loaded with #4 buckshot. Its much easier to put an intruder down with a COM hit with such a shell. However, i dont have kids. I might be a little more concerned about using a shotgun if i had little ones around.
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Old July 3, 2006, 09:49 AM   #59
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Boarding House Rules

Everybody gets one before anyone gets seconds.
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Old July 3, 2006, 10:49 AM   #60
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Ace On The Line,

I think it really depends how many people you are up against. I had my first IPSC shooting experience last week and the typical drill is two shots for each cardboard target before moving to the next target. Considering that the primary defense weapon for most of us (outside the house) is a handgun, 2 to the chest is not a bad idea, especially since it takes just a fraction of a second more. It is much faster to put 2 in the same target than to reacquire your sights for a second round of shots. Besides, unless your shots are instantly incapacitating, the badguys you shot may still be able to shoot you. Practice double taps if you are allowed and you will be suprised how quickly you can get 2 shots off. Now if your concern is ammo capacity because you carry a 5 shot revolver or a small pocket gun, you might want to go one shot each or double tap each and then reolad from cover. I doubt you will get caught in a fire fight way out in the open, and I seriously doubt that everyone will just be standing there shooting at each other. Thats just my $.02 worth anyways.
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Last edited by stephen426; July 5, 2006 at 10:33 AM.
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Old July 3, 2006, 12:31 PM   #61
Ace On The Line
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Stephen 426

Unless Clint Smith haschanged his instruction course "The Boarding House Rule" was being taught there, admittedly its been a number of years but old habits are hard to break. Without going into the Mr.Smith's logic behind this or getting into any other gun guru's theories on the subject, let me just say that I favor Mr. Smith's wisdom on the subject. Not to say anyone is wrong or right, its a choice we all must make and believe in. None of us want to be caught undecisive.
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Old July 3, 2006, 07:52 PM   #62
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I carry revolvers, and you can empty a gun pretty fast. And if you're not hitting anything, that can present a problem( remember pulp fiction?). I know that's the movies and this is real life, but I practice double taps. If two don't do it, then they get two more and so on. I think a disciplined approach is best, and practice makes perfect.
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Old July 4, 2006, 11:38 PM   #63
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I was taught to shoot until the aggression has stopped.
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Old July 5, 2006, 12:11 AM   #64
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How many shots?

As many as it takes to down the agressor but beware the Prosecutor in court because if he is gun unfriendly or out to make a name for himself, and or there are a tribe of witnesses who hate you because you are a whatever and they are willing to lie to see you found guilty........have good lawyers and lots of money.
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Old July 5, 2006, 01:43 PM   #65
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IF you or another are in imminent danger of great bodily injury or death or a REASONABLE assumption can be made thereof, the best policy is "shoot to stop".

In other words: shoot till they are no longer a threat...vary your shot placement from center mass to instant no-go areas (heart, spine, brain stem...)
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Old July 5, 2006, 02:07 PM   #66
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I wouldn't even pause until he hit the ground, or ran away. Unless he's running with my property.
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Old July 5, 2006, 02:22 PM   #67
McBrideGuns
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well personally i dont have any set training pattern nor do i go to a shooting range regularly and all of my shooting experience came form either my dad or my uncle my uncle taught me the the way he learned to shoot in the military and my dad says if they are comming in your house and they arent supposed to be there you unload on them and reload and if they are still twiching you unload on them again until all movement stops or you run out of ammunition and seeing as how im shooting .357 sjhp and just stocked back up with a box of 100 i would say the movement would stop before i run out
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Old July 15, 2006, 06:22 AM   #68
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Real Life

Folks, here's some real life stuff:

a 30yr old fit and strong 5'10" male with 170# on speed storms your 15x15ft office with a knife while you are sitting at your desk focussing to our PC and are as peaceful as you can be.
He comes straigt at you and keeps stabbing onto your head until - luckily - his cheap folding knife breaks.

That happend in the room right next to mine at my workplace recently. Unfortunately I was out of office that day and couldn't help.

So what could you really do? MOVE MOVE MOVE and draw as you MOVE and keep shooting as you MOVE until the threat no longer is a threat.

How often you shoot depends on where and how you hit whom. COM hits at a young strong male on speed may be lethal but can take a long time to incapacitate. You only gain time by MOVING.

Get real.
and stay safe.
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concentrated to your
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Old July 17, 2006, 08:29 AM   #69
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Double Taps

Something to think about
About fifteen years ago during a Coronial Inquest in a departmental shooting The Coroner, asked: “So officer if the threat to life stops after the first shot, why are you firing the second shot, to make sure his dead?”
The officer on the stand (not me) did not have an answer.
Double Taps have been removed from our training program ever since.
Now it’s…shoot, evaluate, shoot, evaluate, shoot, evaluate….
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Old July 17, 2006, 11:30 AM   #70
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Quote:
.Some people tell me that you should shoot in pairs, not one at a time...if attacked...
The training that I received at LFI, Sigarms Academy, and Cumberland Tactics is to keep shooting until the attack stops. Never expect a single shot to stop the attack immediately -- this isn't Hollyweird. Even if you shoot someone directly in the heart, they may still have enough oxygen in their brain to be functional for 10-15 seconds.

Ayoob suggested two shots to the chest and if the threat is still there, to shift to the head or possibly pelvis.
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Old July 17, 2006, 12:21 PM   #71
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Quote:
The officer on the stand (not me) did not have an answer.
Double Taps have been removed from our training program ever since.
As our range officer explained it, there is a sound, physiological reason for the double tap. A single, penetrating wound causes the body's defenses to rally. Adrenalin flows and nerve endings in the affected area are shut down, allowing the person to continue fighting.

A double tap confuses the body's response; defenses are split between the two wounds and become inadequate, and the body goes into shock.

Does it work? Analysis of actual shootings suggests.... sometimes .

My department began teaching the double tap approx. 15 years ago, and it remains an important part of our training.

One other thing: When you're being grilled on the stand about your actions, the best response is often, "I acted the way I was trained". This shifts the focus to your department and instructors.
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Old July 17, 2006, 05:36 PM   #72
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I'd recommend using as little force as possible, especially if the would-be assailant is unarmed----neutralize the threat, but you dont have to personally ensure a meeting with Jesus by emptying your magazine into him......2 or 3 rounds and reassess the threat---more only if necessary. Save some ammo for his buddies around the corner.

As crazy as this sounds, after you have neutralized the threat, make sure in addition to requesting police you request EMTs......this way, if you are ever on the defense side of a courtroom, you can say you shot to neutralize the threat and then immediately sought medical help for your attacker....no jury in the world would convict you of excessive force.

Of course if you put 14 rounds, reload and put a few more in him, then douse him in gasoline and light him up to toast marshmellows til the police arrive you might have some legal problems.
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Old July 18, 2006, 12:59 AM   #73
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As someone who works for and was trained by a large federal law enforcement agency that is VERY politically correct in its firearms policies, we are trained to shoot till the threat has stopped. When that adrenaline is rushing, no one is counting bullets and when you revert to gross motor skills, you do what has been ingrained in you at training. Shooting 2 rounds and then stopping to assess the situation could get you killed. I think that was something taught years ago but most agencies have realized that it is not practical anymore.
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Old July 20, 2006, 12:25 AM   #74
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Doubletap is a great way to learn gun control and keeping em' in the target. It's easy to do with semis but rather difficult with a revolver (for me) I can do it with my Ak or Ar 15.
As far as for defense, empty it in em', reload, and try to find cover at the same time.
Double tapping is a training device for some orginazations.
All that 2 in the chest and one in the head stuff(as far as civilians go) is for Rambo magnum brained idiots who try to be cool. Do what works for you.
George
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