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Old July 12, 2006, 06:52 PM   #1
Edward429451
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Handloading for Mini-14 & AR-15

Crimp is the issue. Been loading for the Mini's for awhile now and always crimped the rounds because the (older) Lyman manual said to.

Aquired a Bushmaster and began loading for it. Everyone and their mother says no crimp for the AR. Ok.

I notice in the newer Lyman manuals, no mention of crimping for the Mini's is there. It sure would be nice to be able to interchange the ammo between the Mini's and the AR. (Working them up side by side of course).

I ran a magful of uncrimped ammo through my Mini and had no setback or problems whatsoever. Am I treading in dangerous territory here? Should I continue to crimp for the Mini's or will I be ok running uncrimped ammo through it?

Some of you guys have to have both Mini's and AR's. What do you do?

Just interchangable blasting ammo is my goal here. Any match type stuff is much smaller quantities and segregated.
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Old July 12, 2006, 07:22 PM   #2
amamnn
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crimping the mini

I crimp everything. My AR is not the standard .223 or 5.56 though. My Mini 14 seems to like ammo of either kind. I ran up a lot of 62 gr speer that I crimped and it likes that a lot--a friend gave me a ton of Wolf .223 62 grain and it likes that too--the Wolf is not crimped. Both rounds shoot a hand sized group at 200 yards.
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Old July 12, 2006, 07:24 PM   #3
rem33
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Had a Mini 14 shot hunderds and hundreds of uncrimped rounds never had a problem. 50, 52 and 55 grain soft points, hollow points and fmj.
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Old July 12, 2006, 07:46 PM   #4
Buckythebrewer
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If you wan't the safest ammo you should crimp with like a lee factory crimp die..It not only holds the bullet from setting back,it also keeps the tip of the neck from being able to pinch against the bullet from the chamber if your brass wasn't 100% trimmed to correct length..I don't usually because im afraid to lose accuracy @ 625yrds,but eventually I am going to crimp some to see if MY accuracy drops.If it doesn't I will crimp everything for safety..Its a good idea to not take a chance..I have for the sake of accuracy increase but thats at 625yrds.And it is stupid on my part to take That chance guns do blow up because of taking chances like the one were talking about..If your not bench shooting or long range shooting I think its a no brainer and you should crimp them JMO..Amamnn ,I think if you look close you will see the wolf ammo has a crimp,its just a different type of crimp..
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Old July 13, 2006, 12:23 AM   #5
Edward429451
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What Bucky said is exactly what I needed to hear. When you explain it like that, it does seem like a no brainer lol.

All my brass is trimmed and I have a Dillon taper crimp die. Thanks.
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Old July 13, 2006, 06:12 AM   #6
Gunrnr
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Yeah, another second for Bucky. I've been using the Lee crimper for a while for all my .223/5.56 production. Shoot it in different ARs (16" & 24") and a Mini, as well. I also have sold a lot of it to others who have used it in 20" ARs, bolt actions, and even one buddy who has a Carbon "pistol". There's no use in making "hot" loads, so I stay middle of the road, usually with AA2230, 4895 or BlC2. There have been no issues in the many yrs I've been doing them. Crimping really helps.

Now the only question I have is how Bucky can shoot a .223 accurately at 625 yds?!?! Dang ~ That's GOOD!

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Old July 13, 2006, 12:20 PM   #7
amamnn
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wolfy

just to be sure I looked again--with a magnifying glass--no crimp--sorry
One note on the Lee crimper--which I like a lot--it's easy to overcrimp with it you are not careful. I bought a Redding profile crimper which does the same job as the Lee, but it is easier to control the amount of crimp with it.
Crimping is good for keeping the bullets in place, and for uniforming start pressures, but overcrimping will deform your bullet and definitely affect accuracy. Of course, for those using a cannelured (factory deformed ) bullet, it's not really that much of an issue as far as accuracy is concerned.
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Old July 13, 2006, 12:50 PM   #8
Edward429451
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I have a Lee FC for .308 and a Dillon taper crimp for .223, even though they're different I believe they basically work the same way. That is correct isn't it?
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Old July 13, 2006, 12:56 PM   #9
Ausserordeutlich
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I'm surprised that ol' Bucky didn't tell you that (1) you don't need to crimp for either your Mini or an AR and (2) that, if you do crimp, you sure as heck don't use a taper crimp; you use a roll-crimp into a cannelure, or use the LEE FCD which "forms" (according to Lee) its own cannelure.

Your crimped rounds won't be one nanno safer than your uncrimped rounds.
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Old July 13, 2006, 01:55 PM   #10
Edward429451
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Interesting. What you're saying is about where I was at before Bucky changed my mind. Since I ran some uncrimped ammo through the Mini, and never have ran even one crimped round through the AR, I know it's safe. At least inasmuch as for the uh, light duty of a trip to the range to punch paper.

I took Bucky's reasoning thusly, Blasting/range/shtf ammo is loaded in much higher quantities than match/long range ammo so the possibility of a bad pc of brass slipping through (not enough neck tension), or a mis feed which may allow the bullet to be impacted by the locking lugs on the barrel or whatever...things happen. Having had crimped it would afford a (nanno!) more assurance that a catastrophic failure would not occur. Eh? Besides, if it's not long range ammo, what's it going to hurt to crimp. Every little bit helps.

I suspect that may be Lymans reasoning for the crimp for the Mini admonition in their 46th edition. Not everyone can be expected to inspect each round as good as they should, especially when loading for what are usually high volume loading. Even experianced loaders can slip. Things happen.

The 62 & 69 gr bullets I load have no cannelure, so why wouldn't a taper crimp be the way to go there? No deformation of the bullet and some added durability for the ammo. The taper crimp is all I've used when crimping and seems ok.

I'm curious to know your qualifier for your position. Do you load for both Mini's & AR's, shoot competition, benchrest, etc..? you never stated that. I'm not necessarily opposing your position. In fact I felt the same way until Bucky's post. I'm not been loading rifle stuff very long and no competition stuff so only know what I've read and heard and wanted some info from the mouth of experiance. I almost certain Bucky's high power because of his 625 yd statement.
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Old July 13, 2006, 04:46 PM   #11
steve4102
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I use the Lee Factory Crimp Die for my Mini-30 and my Browning BAR. I did a little testing with and without the LFCD. In both rifles when the action cycles and slams forward the uncrimped bullets would creep forward increasing the COL. For my Browning I increased neck tension by using a smaller bushing in my Redding bushing die. The bullet creep, although a bit less, was still there. The loads with the LFCD had no increase in COL. As we all know seating depth is key to accuracy. When COL changes due to the cycling of the action, accuracy can suffer.

Here is some interesting reading on the LFCD.
http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html
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Old July 13, 2006, 04:56 PM   #12
Buckythebrewer
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assour??? sorry im not spelling it all out It is for fact safer to use a crimp like the lee factory crimp especially in an auto loader..I have had bullet setback one time when a mag malfunctioned on me with my non crimped ammo.I could have had a bad situation if I did not double check the bullet before chambering and firing..The other thing is the factory crimp die takes out variables that COULD become a problem in the wrong situation..You have to be pretty careless to over crimp with the lee FCD.I have been using it for a while and it works great(my only complaint is brass life can suffer from split necks sooner but it is worth the safety insurance)and i wouldn't be surprised if I don't see much accuracy difference by using it in my long range ammo..

AS far as long range shooting with my ar15,,I have a 24" dpms bull stainless that I have pampered every step of the way from 1 shot & clean breakin for the 1st 20 rounds,, to normal cleaning with a one piece carbon fiber rod and bore guide with strong barnes copper solvent folowed with marvel then wiped dry..I have spent alot of time tighteneing my lower to upper fit and also using JP trigger with KNS pins with tetra gun grease on all lower reciever parts for SMOOTH non-creap consistent trigger pull.Burris signature 8-32 helpsSandbags are a must as well and they cant slip and move around.Using a bipod I can hit a soda can everytime @ 300 yards with malaysia m193 55gr ball ammo.I don't believe I can shoot as well at 625yards with the bipod and I know for sure I would not do so well under windy conditions..The 223 in an ar15 has been winning long range competitions out to 600 yards for quite sometime now and some win 1000yrd competitions..I am very curious what my barrel can do @ 1000yrds Out at those ranges it takes ammo that is basicly using unsafe pressures to keep the 80-90gr bullets supersonic for stability and it also takes some serious figuring for bullet drop ..For 600 yards many ar15's can do well especially with bullets like the 77gr SMK.Its all about the ballistic coeficiencies(spelling?)The 223 in 77gr smk-80gr smk are very long and narrow and it makes them cut through the wind better than most heavier and wider bullets..@ 625yards with my 77gr smk handloads I get (give or take) 7 ft of bullet drop oh,,amamn the wolf ammo I looked at had a crimp that you could see ,But I guess I can't say all wolf does if yours doesn't.
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Old July 13, 2006, 05:20 PM   #13
Buckythebrewer
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Steve4102,,There is some truth to those tests for sure but not in all situations.I usually seat .005 off the lands for long range ammo and I have tried as far as .025 off the lands Both with accuracy and no crimping.I also tried jamming into the lands and didn't see any accuracy loss or over pressure either( it was a lighter powder charge though!!)I have used full length lee pacesetter dies @625yrds with surprisingly excellent accuracy and I have also used my collet die( while checking shoulder displacement with a mic)with great accuracy..I would not be a bit surprised to not lose accuracy by using the collet die,and maybe even gain a little(but I dought it).I was very surprised when I used regular LC brass full length sized,23.8gr of H4895,winchester primers and seated them to magazine feed length and gotten great accuracy..No special case prep and I used a cheap lee perfect powder measure for charging the brass..I have shot at least 100rnds @ 600yrds with under M.O.A. accuracy,One 5 shot group was near 3 inches..Its the combination and consistency that is bringing it together IMO..I think the ar design and Sandbags diserve most of the credit along with a great cartridge,, The 223,Oh im sure those awesome 77gr SMK coasters have something to do with it as well>
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Old July 13, 2006, 05:32 PM   #14
azredhawk44
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I load .308 for an M1A (similar action to the mini-14).

I was told be several sources both here and personal acquaintances that I was free to crimp if I wanted to, but it would reduce accuracy at longer ranges. As long as I kept my OAL comfortably between the listed load's min and max OAL and kept the bullet seated as closely forward to the lans as possible, I would achieve peak accuracy by not doing anything to compromise the bullet's jacket as it travels from the case to the rifling.

So I don't crimp. I've shot about 1000 handloads through my rifle so far. I'm still learning to shoot for peak accuracy, but I am seeing about 2MOA groups in 5 shots with iron sights. My Hornady 168gr HPBT match bullets have no cannelure, IIRC. My practice Remington 165gr SP bulllets do have one, but I don't use it.

It sounds, edward, that a conservative crimp would serve you well and is certainly not going to impede blasting or plinking... The question here is whether a crimp is beneficial or detrimental to peak accuracy and smallest groups. My shooting skills are not yet at a point where I can go out one day and prove or disprove this from a bench... I will get 1.8" groups one way and 1.7" groups the other, probably.

Bucky, it that gun set up with a scope of some sort, or iron sights?
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Old July 13, 2006, 06:24 PM   #15
Buckythebrewer
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I am using an a.r.m.s extended mount & a burris signature 8-32x scope..I have shot well with 8x but 32x is nice when there is no bad mirage..I am not 100% sure of bullet impact change while adjusting from 8X to 32X(scope tolerances I mean) but that is another test I will try soon..I have shot my friends ak74 with open sights @ 300 yards and was very impressed at how easy it is to shoot long range with open sights(in general I mean)It takes extra skill IMO to shoot well with open sights but people do it everyday in competition and THEY are the REAL skilled shooters..before I started shooting long range I thought it would be very hard or impossible but its not as long as you have a good rest(or excellent shooting skill and discipline ) Like sandbags properly setup or a bipod on a steady surface with good rear hand or sandbag support..I have learned that the body is the worst contributor to accuracy.In my experience true accuracy is best achieved when your shoulder is not touching the rifle,That way your heartbeat and breathing doesn't throw off the shots as bad..Because my rifle weighs 14+pounds and its shooting 223 I can get away with floating my rifle on the bags and getting consistent recoil effects with bi-pod and sandbags without the rifle slamming into my shoulderThats were im getting the consistency to hit Under M.O.A. @ 625yrds.The other things into my rifle help as well but its the sandbags/bi-pod consistency that is doing most of the work for me.Im just lucky the dpms barrel turned out to be a JEWEL for me.
anyways yes I have a scope but It is not needed it just makes it so you can see what your hitting,32X is nice but 8X is just as good(well kinda) if you know your on target. Having a WHITE painted steal swinging gong backing is also the ticket at those ranges,If you can't see it(open sights) you can definetly hear it

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