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Old May 20, 2006, 10:55 AM   #1
Kelly J
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I had a bad experience

I had a bad experience of a Bullet not holding in a S&W 625-9 Mountain Gun 4" Barrel with a moderate Velocity load, 10.5 Gns HS-6 Powder under a 250 GR LRNFP Bullet, Range brass and Winchester LP Primers, the load was seated to a COL of 1.595. Published Velocity of 946 FPS with a Published Pressure of 13,300. The Cases were not trimmed to any length, which admittedly is part of the problem. I use a Dillon Square Deal B Auto Progressive Press each station is independently adjustable. I talked to my Bullet Supplier and He Suggested that I resize with a 45 ACP die to reduce the case Dimension, where the bullet will be seated, there by increasing the tension on the Bullet, It sounded plausible so I tried it but with a hitch, I full length resized the cases with the normal 45 Colt Die then I partial resized with the 45 ACP die to a depth of 3/8 inch. Then I put the unprimed case in the Powder/Primmer/Flair Station, (the expander dimention is .4478”), and proceeded as normal, loading the lead RNFP Bullets and crimping the dummy rounds to check results.

Results case Dimension after resizing 45 Colt dies .470"
Case dimension after partial resizing 45 ACP Die.466"
Case Dimension after Seating Bullet.472"
Bullet Dia. before loading .452" after breakdown of dummy load .452" and showing good drag marks of case from the round loaded with the 45 ACP resize die used a kinetic bullet puller.
The crimp is a combination taper/Roll Crimp as this is the design of the crimp die.

The crimp on the rounds that did not hold was a ROLL CRIMP for clarification.

Prime Question: Your feedback on this process, Your thoughts on the partial resize with the 45 ACP die, What if I used the 45 ACP Die to full length resize the case eliminating the first step and the extra step of partial resizing, and would I gain any extra holding power by using the 45 ACP Crimp die instead of the regular 45 Colt Crimp Die, Finally do you think this would affect the accuracy as the Base of the case and the loaded Diameter of the case mouth will be as a normal dimension load with only the middle of the case being undersize.
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Old May 20, 2006, 01:48 PM   #2
357shooter
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Kelly,I have loaded that exact same round,and have also upped it to 11 gr.of hs6.The load is very accurate in my win.94 and my old model vaquero.My bullets are from oregon trail(250gr.rnfp)452. size.and my dies are carbide dies from lee with the lee factory crimp.Are you saying that the bullet is starting to come out of the case from other rounds being fired?If that,s the case maybe you not putting enough crimp on the case.Try crimping to the bottom of the crimp groove.I have never had a problem even in the tubular magazine of the win. 94'.What are you using for dies?What size are your bullets?Are you using bullets without a crimp groove?I am not sure if sizing with 45acp.sizing dies will affect accuracy.I am no expert at reloading that's for sure,I'm really just learning myself,but those seem to be really moderate loads to have the bullets pull out.
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Old May 20, 2006, 01:50 PM   #3
brickeyee
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"Range brass"

that about says it all.
get some brass of known age.
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Old May 20, 2006, 10:22 PM   #4
Kelly J
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357 Shooter

You might reread my post I think some of your Questions will be answered, I use as stated the Dillon Square Deal B Loading Press it does not use standard 7/8-14 Dies of any kind.

I have crimped the rounds until I see a land apear on the bullet dide of the crimp, didn't work any better.

Both weapons you mentioned are heavier than the 625-9 S&W DA Revolver.
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Old May 20, 2006, 10:25 PM   #5
Kelly J
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Brickeyee

I cain't argue that as posted in my other post about components, that very thing is now in the works, I'm just trying to get a bit more feedback on the issue before I jump in with both feet.
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Old May 21, 2006, 05:32 AM   #6
HSMITH
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Kelly, on a lightweight gun you are going to have to roll the crimp into a crimp groove pretty hard. Go ahead and roll it in there, .040" deep minimum. You should be able to see a definate roll on the casemouth without looking at it very hard.

Experiment with a couple dummies and your kinetic puller. Crimp harder until a good whack with the puller doesn't move the bullet. Properly roll crimped rounds with lead bullets take several good hard whacks to move the bullet. Then load some up and take them to the range, shoot two and measure the four left in the chambers. If they are longer stop and crimp them harder. If they aren't longer put two new rounds in and shoot them keeping the original 4 in the cylinder. Measure again. I make sure I can shoot at least 6 shots without the cartridges getting longer, and I like them to shoot at least 8 times without growth.

The downside to this is that it is hard on brass, the brass will split a lot sooner than if you were just bumping the mouth into the crimp groove and shooting light loads in a heavy gun but it is just the nature of the beast with a light revolver.
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Old May 21, 2006, 08:20 AM   #7
dogfood
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Kelly:

To address some of your particular questions ... sort of:

(1) The partial sizing with the .45 ACP die is a good idea ... and has been used many times in the past. Some .45 Colt dies just don't downsize the brass enough for good tension on .452 dia. bullets. Recall that years ago the .45 Colt bullet was .454 dia., so dies may still be manufactured by some to be a compromise. I doubt that the .45 ACP partial resize will have any substantial effect on accuracy, either way.

(2) If I understand correctly, you are considering FL sizing .45 Colt brass with a .45 ACP sizing die. Most, if not all, .45 ACP die sets won't accomodate this since they are not machined to the length required by the .45 Colt case. And even if it was possible, you don't really want to do this, since it will excessively work your .45 Colt brass.

(3) As noted earlier by another poster, lighter guns shooting heavy bullets are notorious for bullet pull. A good roll crimp will help here - but it will only work well if you have cases of the same manufacturer, trimmed to the same length. Regardless, a good roll crimp is no substitute for good neck tension. So I would stick to your improved method for now ... and I would consider contacting Dillon about the issue. They may be able to provide you with a .45 Colt sizing die that resizes the brass more. This would get you out of your extra step.

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Old May 21, 2006, 09:10 AM   #8
357shooter
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Kelly,since I am new to this I did not realize the dillon presses did not take standard dies,which is why I post a little and read a lot to expand my knowledge.I know the lighter gun do recoil more than the heavier guns but I didn't think it would be that significant in that specific revolver,I guess I was wrong.
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Old May 21, 2006, 09:52 AM   #9
Kelly J
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Hsmith

I've got the crimp hitting as hard as I can get it, if I go any harder I will get a straight land on the case mouth that indicates that I have passed thr crimp dies capability.

When I get my new brass and work the load up to where I think it should be I will try the test method as you described and see what if anything comes out.

Thanks for the tip.
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Old May 21, 2006, 10:07 AM   #10
Kelly J
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Dogfood

Answer 1. I don't think that accuracy will be affected eigther as the bullet will actually have the same dimentions as if it were done only in 45 Colt dies.

Answer 2. I have had several people tell me that partial sizing with the 45 ACP was an acceptable method and others have said that full length resizing with the 45 ACP die (which my press will take it down to within a 1/4" of case head) will only shorten the case life, with this qualification Good bullet tension out weighs case life.

Answer 3. This situation is being looked at and will be addressed very shortly, I have asked for some advice on components here on the forum, and have gotten some good help on a decision process.
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Old May 21, 2006, 10:09 AM   #11
Kelly J
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357 shooter

I won't say it is a killer but her do bounce a bit.
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Old May 21, 2006, 03:01 PM   #12
brickeyee
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The only brass I leave at the range is stuff that is starting to show splits on reloading. If a batch gets to more than even 1% I shoot what is loaded and leave it in the brass bucket. If the range is clean I might bring it hiome and throw it into the scrap pile (goes to scrap dealer every year or two).
Learning with cruddy brass will likely just frustrate you.
I have not needed to purchase any in a few years since I have many tens of thousands of IMI mil cases I cycle through.
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Old May 21, 2006, 04:55 PM   #13
Kelly J
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Brickeyee

The brass I have been using is from an indoor range, and what I have done in the past is I bring it home, throw it in the vibratory cleaner mach. leav it for 2 hours, then dump it out and go through it if I find brass that is burnt that didn't clean up or anything that looks supisious it gets chucked out. This isn't the same as new brass but that is going to be cured shortly, as soon as I get the components ironed out that I plan to use at least to start working up loads. Two things I have got to get is myown Case trimmer and Cronny, I hate depending on other people for things that I should have myself, but all things will come in time, just like my disability check.
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Old May 21, 2006, 08:46 PM   #14
brickeyee
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Regretfully there is no way to tell by a visual examination if brass is nearing the end of its useful life. Most of the time it has simply work hardened to the point were it splits (and sometimes not even right away).
With rifle brass you can try and anneal the necks, but most pistol brass is to short to heat the neck without softening the case head. the cost of most pistol brass is also low enough it is rarely worth the work.You do not need a chron or trimmer to get started. Most new brass is well below max length, and a chrono is not required of you are looking for less than full power loading. Very few can shoot a handgun accurately enouigh to ever bother with a chrono.
For .45 ACP the pressures are relatively low and the cartridge very forgiving.
Get a load that cycles the action reliably and start practicing. When you get good enough to notice the shots are not consistent, work on the load (or the gun).
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Old May 22, 2006, 01:08 AM   #15
Kelly J
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Brickeyee

I cain't argue that judgement but I think to the latter part of your reply you were under the impression that I was loading and shooting a 45 ACP, probably because I mentioned using the 45 ACP resizer die on my 45 Colt Brass. Which ain't no problem, except I cain't aford the other gun right now, that is unless you have a real barn burner of a deal on one.(Joking ofcourse)
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