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Old May 20, 2006, 10:49 AM   #1
OLD LOADER
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30/30-smokeless

A while back some one said the 30/30 was the first cartridge loaded with smokeless powder. Does anyone know if this is true ?
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Old May 20, 2006, 10:56 AM   #2
AAshooter
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According to http://www.chuckhawks.com/early_meta...artridges.htm:

The .30-30 Winchester was the first high velocity, smokeless powder sporting rifle cartridge developed in the U.S. (The very few previous smokeless powder cartridges were military developments.) The .30-30 was originally loaded with a 165 grain .30 caliber bullet. It jumped muzzle velocity from the approximate 1400 fps of black powder cartridges to about 2000 fps, and made a 200 yard maximum point blank range possible for the first time. This totally revolutionized the sport of hunting, and led to the demise of most of the black powder cartridges that had proceeded it.

Introduced in the famous Winchester Model 1894 rifle, the .30-30 and the Model 94 went on to become the most popular centerfire rifle and cartridge combination ever invented. They ushered in the age of the small bore, bottleneck sporting rifle cartridge. The .25-35, 7-30 Waters, and .32 Winchester Special, among other cartridges, are based on the .30-30 case.

The .30-30 is a rimmed cartridge, just like the black powder sporting cartridges that had preceded it. This is fine for a tubular magazine rifle such as the Model 94, but less satisfactory for a repeating rifle fed from a box magazine.
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Old May 20, 2006, 11:12 AM   #3
Tom Matiska
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30-30 is mostly credited with being the first, but I do believe that the 30-40 Krag (1st US Mil smokeless, 1892) was availble for comercial sales in 1893. The 1894 offering of the 30-30 got off to a slow start in '94, and really didn't hit the market until '95.
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Old May 20, 2006, 01:15 PM   #4
Mike Irwin
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Yes, and no, at the same time.

As Tom notes, the .30-40 Krag predated the .30-30, but wasn't a civilan cartridge until about 1897 or so when Winchester started offering it in the Model 1895 lever action.

The .30-30 and the .25-35 were both introduced commercially in 1895. The first Model 1894s were offered only in .38-55 and .32-40 blackpowder, because there were a couple of hitches with the smokeless powder that was supposed to go into the .30-30 and .25-35 rounds.

It's not really correct to say that the .25-35 was developed FROM the .30-30, either, as both were in development at the same time.

The first smokeless centerfire rifle cartridge, though, was the 8mm Lebel in 1886 or there abouts.

Smokeless powders had been used in other applications before that, though. Some of the earliest was Schultz's, which was a nitrated wood pulp for use in shot shells. There was also a powder called Golden Rod, or something like that, that used a picric acid base. It worked OK, but had a tendency to dye the skin a nice yellow color if you got into the smoke.
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Old May 21, 2006, 03:57 PM   #5
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30-30

Thanks Guys ,this settles my confusion on thls.
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Old May 21, 2006, 06:48 PM   #6
Leftoverdj
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I believe the 8mm Lebel was the first smokeless powder cartridge.
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Old May 21, 2006, 09:52 PM   #7
Tom Matiska
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To my surprise, my Speer #9 manual say the Krag made it's civilian debut in Win's single shot highwall in 1893, followed shortly by Remington-Lee bolt and rolling block offerings.
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Old May 21, 2006, 10:11 PM   #8
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"To my surprise, my Speer #9 manual say the Krag made it's civilian debut in Win's single shot highwall in 1893, followed shortly by Remington-Lee bolt and rolling block offerings."

OK, the Highwall I didn't think about. The earliest Remington-Lee I'd ever heard about being chambered in .30-40 was the Model 1899.


"I believe the 8mm Lebel was the first smokeless powder cartridge."

The first smokeless centerfire rifle cartridge. As I noted, early smokeless powders had been used in shotshells prior to 1886.
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