Personally, this doctrine is difficult to adhere to! - Page 2

abs · May 2, 2006, 08:10 PM

He described in one of his novels a tense situation among armed men who did not draw their guns because knew that the pulled guns must shoot...
I've read this being a teen 30+ years ago: don't remember the novel's name but remember the story.

pickpocket · May 2, 2006, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoSAR1

Pickpocket-That's really irrelevant because you shouldn't even have the gun in the first place if you don't intend to use it if the situation calls for it.

You would think so, wouldn't you.

Either way, I think you have just argued the point for me. This isn't really so difficult, you know; and I don't know why you seem so wrapped around the axel over the 'meaning' of a word.

Shawn Dodson · May 3, 2006, 03:29 PM

Draw it strictly in preparation to protect yourself or an innocent third party from the wrongful and life-threatening criminal actions of another.

You don't have to wait until you've made the decision to shoot to draw your weapon.

Hand on gun, presenting gun, pointing gun are legitimate force options depending on the circumstances.

charles99 · May 5, 2006, 12:41 PM

One of he famous and most respected quick draw experts of old,can't think of his name now,(Policeman out west - I think Bill Jordan) wrote a book on how to quick draw,but said I was far better to already have your gun out. He said a beginner with his gun out (in front) who could hit something - has his gun out first - and the first gun out should win and could beat all the fastest draw crowd and should win any gunfight. So, he said the first rule was to try to always have your gun out first -ahead of time if there is a threat- and not depend on a fast draw.
He said that that point was more important that learning to fast draw.
Charles

Harley Quinn · May 5, 2006, 01:22 PM

I would be closer to Pickpocket and Blackwater OPS.

Makes sense to me. Many things are made for LEO's that was not out there when I was on the Job. We carried puny amounts of ammo and not the best caliber either. We did get to have a nice shot gun real close by. Worked well as a shooter and a hitter. "Butt stroke" comes to mind.

When taking the pistol out, and not the right decision. It is a dangerous position to be in. You might hesitate to shoot because it was a bluff and now you are in even deeper doodoo. Got to put it away or shoot.

The baton or mace or a hand held taser is better in that condition. One of the reason's I liked to carry two guns one for either hand to get to quick, in case you have the gun carring side (hand) full of something else.

But policy is the main thing and you had better adhere to it. Fear is another that is needed when you draw, if you are not in fear and, I mean FEAR that you can explain without looking like a punk, then keep it in your holster.

Training and more training. Hand to hand combat is the best thing to go for as far as I am concerned, if you train in the good hand to hand courses avaliable, you are better off.
Good conditioning of the body is a must. With that type of conditioning the mind will follow. It is a rule.

HQ

Skyguy · May 5, 2006, 01:41 PM

Quote:

You don't have to wait until you've made the decision to shoot to draw your weapon.

Hand on gun, presenting gun, pointing gun are legitimate force options depending on the circumstances.

And that's that. Nothing more need be said.

Now, if only some of the expert instructors would teach that truth instead of teaching a flawed tactic that only covers 'their' butt.
.

spacemanspiff · May 5, 2006, 02:10 PM

Quote:

You don't have to wait until you've made the decision to shoot to draw your weapon.
Hand on gun, presenting gun, pointing gun are legitimate force options depending on the circumstances.

word of the day is "escalation".

Quote:

And that's that. Nothing more need be said.
Now, if only some of the expert instructors would teach that truth instead of teaching a flawed tactic that only covers 'their' butt.

gee, so the district attorney that was on hand to define the proper uses of deadly force in self defense was wrong? he was lying when he told us that my state's law doesn't allow for me to pre-emptively draw my gun out when there is only a *possibility* my life will be threatened?

sorry bub, i'll believe the word of someone who's living is made from defining state law, rather than someone who interprets the law to fit their own view of reality.

**Glenn E. Meyer** · May 5, 2006, 02:21 PM

Define 'possibility' in terms that make it realistic to evaluate.

You see a man approaching you with a knife drawn. Does the law mandate you shoot him immediately? Can you not draw and challenge him in Alaska?

BTW, I know all about the Tueller Drill and have done it quite a few times. That's not the issue.

If you realistically fear grievous bodily harm, drawing the gun is legit. You don't have to use it. I don't think any legalism mandates you have to shoot.

spacemanspiff · May 5, 2006, 02:52 PM

in all fairness, thats not whats being discussed here, glenn.
look back to the first post in this thread, its about drawing down on a "possible threat". this means, as far as i'm concerned, a person who appears menacing but has no visible weapon displayed. he might be yelling and gesturing vehemently, and may be saying he's going to kill me, and do unnatural things to me.
but simply being rude or arrogant or enraged is not enough for me to draw my weapon from its holster.

i've been in a situation just like this before. i'm positive the intention of the person who approached me was to mug me. and my hand was gripping my gun, still in its holster, because for the duration of his contact with me, i could see no weapon on him.
it didnt matter that my spidey-sense was going bonkers, this guy was making me streak my underoos, i was nervous and suspicious of his behavior, but not in fear for my life.

don't get me wrong. if someone approaches me with a weapon in hand, i'll draw down. but thats not what the original poster of this thread had in mind.

**Glenn E. Meyer** · May 5, 2006, 03:11 PM

Well, the original post wasn't that clear but I see your point.

It's not an yes, no answer as the threat isn't that easily classified. That's why classes teach a continuum of responses. The person approaching you can be verbally challenged before they get too close and put on notice that you notice them and are not an easy victim without drawing on them.

I guess it is a force continuum issue and one should have knowledge of it and options. I certainly don't want to fight someone, so challenges and OC might be appropriate for the not necessarily immediate lethal threat.

If the nugget of the ill formed first post was that you have to shoot if you draw - then my point was that, I don't think that is algorithmic in nature. You don't have to shoot. You can challenge.

spacemanspiff · May 5, 2006, 03:23 PM

and the line into that gray area is very thin, and the person making such a decision needs to be ready to adapt to the reactions from the assailant.

our response to this type of situation is worlds different than what a LEO would do. a LEO would probably draw down earlier than we might, and would do more verbal challenges while his weapon is trained on the individual.

as far as i'm concerned, once i draw my weapon out, verbal challenges are out the window. if the threat does not stop, i don't see anywhere in the law that says i have to announce what i'm going to do if he doesnt stop.
but should that threat stop in its tracks, i have to scale down, if he wants to stay where he's at, thats fine by me. if he's within my comfort zone, i'll see if i can back up to a better position, or order the now-stopped-threat to slowly back up. even if he drops his weapon, falls to the ground and goes arms/legs spread out, i'll keep my weapon at low ready.
if he turns and runs, great, let me find cover or concealment and call 911.

Mannlicher · May 5, 2006, 03:50 PM

all I can say is that I have carried for about 40 + years, and I have never had to pull a gun on anyone. If I do, I would imagine that I would be "using it". I don't find it a hard doctrine to follow at all.

GlocksRfun · May 6, 2006, 03:27 AM

I'm sure there are people out there that if you draw on, that'll make them even more mad and agrivated. If you'r not willing to deal with the consiquenses of possibly shooting someone for some reason, don't draw. I don't think it means that you have to shoot someone if you draw, but more to make you not draw in less serious times. Times can go from not serious to very serious in very little time. I live in a non-CCW state so I don't have to worry about those kind of things.

jamaica · May 6, 2006, 12:11 PM

Quoting Blackwater OPS: Same situation if someone tries to start a fist fight with you. He may be a danger, but you cannot draw. end quote

How do you start a fist fight? Throw a punch?

Well when I was in high school (class of '58) there was plenty of fist fighting, but now days you throw a punch it is called assault and you will probably get hauled in and fined at the least.

Assault yes! Now if someone threw a punch at me I reckon I would reach for my piece. Not much chance I could whip anyone in a fist fight these days, unless I got in a very good first punch. After all I was just assaulted, Right?
That is reason enough to draw in my book. Let the perp decide if he wants to continue when looking down the barrel of a 44.

May 2, 2006, 08:10 PM	#26
abs Member Join Date: April 26, 2006 Location: NJ Posts: 88	Ask Hemingway... He described in one of his novels a tense situation among armed men who did not draw their guns because knew that the pulled guns must shoot... I've read this being a teen 30+ years ago: don't remember the novel's name but remember the story.

May 5, 2006, 01:22 PM	#30
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	I have to agree to disagree with quite a few of you. I would be closer to Pickpocket and Blackwater OPS. Makes sense to me. Many things are made for LEO's that was not out there when I was on the Job. We carried puny amounts of ammo and not the best caliber either. We did get to have a nice shot gun real close by. Worked well as a shooter and a hitter. "Butt stroke" comes to mind. When taking the pistol out, and not the right decision. It is a dangerous position to be in. You might hesitate to shoot because it was a bluff and now you are in even deeper doodoo. Got to put it away or shoot. The baton or mace or a hand held taser is better in that condition. One of the reason's I liked to carry two guns one for either hand to get to quick, in case you have the gun carring side (hand) full of something else. But policy is the main thing and you had better adhere to it. Fear is another that is needed when you draw, if you are not in fear and, I mean FEAR that you can explain without looking like a punk, then keep it in your holster. Training and more training. Hand to hand combat is the best thing to go for as far as I am concerned, if you train in the good hand to hand courses avaliable, you are better off. Good conditioning of the body is a must. With that type of conditioning the mind will follow. It is a rule. HQ

May 5, 2006, 02:21 PM	#33
Glenn E. Meyer Staff Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 13,301	Define 'possibility' in terms that make it realistic to evaluate. You see a man approaching you with a knife drawn. Does the law mandate you shoot him immediately? Can you not draw and challenge him in Alaska? BTW, I know all about the Tueller Drill and have done it quite a few times. That's not the issue. If you realistically fear grievous bodily harm, drawing the gun is legit. You don't have to use it. I don't think any legalism mandates you have to shoot. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm Being an Academic Shooter http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm Being an Active Shooter

May 5, 2006, 02:52 PM	#34
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,021	in all fairness, thats not whats being discussed here, glenn. look back to the first post in this thread, its about drawing down on a "possible threat". this means, as far as i'm concerned, a person who appears menacing but has no visible weapon displayed. he might be yelling and gesturing vehemently, and may be saying he's going to kill me, and do unnatural things to me. but simply being rude or arrogant or enraged is not enough for me to draw my weapon from its holster. i've been in a situation just like this before. i'm positive the intention of the person who approached me was to mug me. and my hand was gripping my gun, still in its holster, because for the duration of his contact with me, i could see no weapon on him. it didnt matter that my spidey-sense was going bonkers, this guy was making me streak my underoos, i was nervous and suspicious of his behavior, but not in fear for my life. don't get me wrong. if someone approaches me with a weapon in hand, i'll draw down. but thats not what the original poster of this thread had in mind. __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

May 5, 2006, 03:11 PM	#35
Glenn E. Meyer Staff Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 13,301	Well, the original post wasn't that clear but I see your point. It's not an yes, no answer as the threat isn't that easily classified. That's why classes teach a continuum of responses. The person approaching you can be verbally challenged before they get too close and put on notice that you notice them and are not an easy victim without drawing on them. I guess it is a force continuum issue and one should have knowledge of it and options. I certainly don't want to fight someone, so challenges and OC might be appropriate for the not necessarily immediate lethal threat. If the nugget of the ill formed first post was that you have to shoot if you draw - then my point was that, I don't think that is algorithmic in nature. You don't have to shoot. You can challenge. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm Being an Academic Shooter http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm Being an Active Shooter

May 3, 2006, 03:29 PM	#28
Shawn Dodson Junior member Join Date: December 16, 1998 Location: Titusville, FL, USA Posts: 1,031	Draw it strictly in preparation to protect yourself or an innocent third party from the wrongful and life-threatening criminal actions of another. You don't have to wait until you've made the decision to shoot to draw your weapon. Hand on gun, presenting gun, pointing gun are legitimate force options depending on the circumstances.

May 5, 2006, 12:41 PM	#29
charles99 Junior Member Join Date: May 3, 2006 Posts: 2	One of he famous and most respected quick draw experts of old,can't think of his name now,(Policeman out west - I think Bill Jordan) wrote a book on how to quick draw,but said I was far better to already have your gun out. He said a beginner with his gun out (in front) who could hit something - has his gun out first - and the first gun out should win and could beat all the fastest draw crowd and should win any gunfight. So, he said the first rule was to try to always have your gun out first -ahead of time if there is a threat- and not depend on a fast draw. He said that that point was more important that learning to fast draw. Charles

May 5, 2006, 03:23 PM	#36
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,021	and the line into that gray area is very thin, and the person making such a decision needs to be ready to adapt to the reactions from the assailant. our response to this type of situation is worlds different than what a LEO would do. a LEO would probably draw down earlier than we might, and would do more verbal challenges while his weapon is trained on the individual. as far as i'm concerned, once i draw my weapon out, verbal challenges are out the window. if the threat does not stop, i don't see anywhere in the law that says i have to announce what i'm going to do if he doesnt stop. but should that threat stop in its tracks, i have to scale down, if he wants to stay where he's at, thats fine by me. if he's within my comfort zone, i'll see if i can back up to a better position, or order the now-stopped-threat to slowly back up. even if he drops his weapon, falls to the ground and goes arms/legs spread out, i'll keep my weapon at low ready. if he turns and runs, great, let me find cover or concealment and call 911. __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

May 5, 2006, 03:50 PM	#37
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida Posts: 2,933	all I can say is that I have carried for about 40 + years, and I have never had to pull a gun on anyone. If I do, I would imagine that I would be "using it". I don't find it a hard doctrine to follow at all. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

May 6, 2006, 03:27 AM	#38
GlocksRfun Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 419	I'm sure there are people out there that if you draw on, that'll make them even more mad and agrivated. If you'r not willing to deal with the consiquenses of possibly shooting someone for some reason, don't draw. I don't think it means that you have to shoot someone if you draw, but more to make you not draw in less serious times. Times can go from not serious to very serious in very little time. I live in a non-CCW state so I don't have to worry about those kind of things.

May 6, 2006, 12:11 PM	#39
jamaica Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2006 Location: Northern Utah Posts: 441	Fist fight? Quoting Blackwater OPS: Same situation if someone tries to start a fist fight with you. He may be a danger, but you cannot draw. end quote How do you start a fist fight? Throw a punch? Well when I was in high school (class of '58) there was plenty of fist fighting, but now days you throw a punch it is called assault and you will probably get hauled in and fined at the least. Assault yes! Now if someone threw a punch at me I reckon I would reach for my piece. Not much chance I could whip anyone in a fist fight these days, unless I got in a very good first punch. After all I was just assaulted, Right? That is reason enough to draw in my book. Let the perp decide if he wants to continue when looking down the barrel of a 44.