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Old April 1, 2006, 11:25 PM   #1
kidcoltoutlaw
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For anyone that has blow a cartridge case head in a pistol

I blew a 40 S&W case head off with a 12 grain load of Long shot with a 135 Nosler. In P229 40 using a 3X or 4X fired case it blew the extractor and top of the right grip off. The case stayed in the gun but the head was gone.
The more I look at the case that blew the case head off the more I think something else happened. It stayed in the barrel the head was gone . There is a wave in the case wall . It makes me think that maybe the bullet did not seat right and buckled the case just a very little. I just don't see how there could be a wrinkle in a case that took that much pressure. The same thing or close to it can happen in a revolver when you put to much crimp. In the case of a revolver the case will be cut almost in too when it fires. The crimp ring does its job but is adjusted wrong and pushes the case down even more. It was not the crimp ring but I'm thinking maybe the bullet did not seat just right and the LEE FCD ironed the case out enough for it to feed ?? There was one case that did not feel just right but the RCBS Pro 2000 is so strong it could almost crush a car. So I did not check it must be the only time I did not its always nothing when I check it anyway.

Am I crazy or could I be on to something here ? Again I say how could there be a wave or bulge in a case that took that much pressure. I later took a case and loaded it 10 times with 12 grains of Longshot but this time I used a Bar-Sto barrel. That is I loaded one case 10 times with a max load without a problem. That load will push a 135 at 1567 in a 5 inch P229 40 it smokes. Feel free to tell me I'm full of s$it,

Thanks,

Thanks,Keith
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Old April 2, 2006, 11:41 AM   #2
WIL TERRY
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You're Full Of S$it.

You have described a classic case of FAR TOO MUCH PRESSURE !!!
There is NO propellent that will take a 135GR bullet in a 40S&W cartridge to 1567fps without being 15,000 to 20,000 pounds over SAAMI/CIP specifications for absolute maximum pressure.
Just what in the world were you thinking ???!!!
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Old April 2, 2006, 12:06 PM   #3
caz223
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When you push that much pressure and resize (You have to to get your case to fit in the chamber.) you're working the brass excessively. The first firing can handle it, but the subsequent firings may be problematic, even in a gun with good support. Incipient case head failures will result. Also, any tiny thing that would cause pressures to spike will get you in trouble when you're in the red zone.
You can get these velocities in a 10mm with little to no stress to gun/shooter, so WHY DO IT WITH A .40??????
The alliant powder online data loadfor 10mm with 135 grain nosler does 1530 out of a 5 1/2" barrel with power pistol.
So why do you think you can beat that with .40, without even taking the basic precaution of using virgin components, or shooting them through a gun with better/best support, like a smith 610?
Bar-sto barrels are nice, I agree, but I think if you called them and told them what you were doing, they would caution you against exceeding saami pressure limits.
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Old April 2, 2006, 01:23 PM   #4
kidcoltoutlaw
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12 grains of Longshot is not over max

It is max but it is not over max pressure is 32,400 or so hodgdon says it is any way. I used a once fired case and loaded the same case ten times with a 12 grain load in a 5 inch barsto without a problem it pushes a 135 at 1567 in a 40.
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Old April 2, 2006, 01:47 PM   #5
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My guess from the wrinkle is that the bullet was pushed deeper into the case as it chambered. That would run pressures way up, and you did not have much safety margin, anyway. If it happened once, it can happen again.

If you want a 10 mm, buy one while you still have the fingers to shoot it with.
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Old April 2, 2006, 01:57 PM   #6
caz223
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Well put, Leftoverdj. However, I suspect by some of his previous posts and other forums I have seen him at he has no shortage of 10mm pistols.
My question is why he isn't using them.
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/longshot/index.htm
According to hodgdon's own data, that bullet is NOT doing 1567 at standard pressures.
12.0 grains of longshot with a 135 grain bullet at 1.125 is good for 1480.
But what brand of brass? Were you using hornady brass? No?
Internal case volume varies greatly by manufacturer. This affects pressure.

Either the bullet is not doing 1567, or the pressure is higher than SAAMI standards. Which is it?
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Old April 2, 2006, 02:06 PM   #7
kidcoltoutlaw
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I do have a 10mm

It's a Smith 610. Enough force to disfigure the case would cause a jam don't you think. I do get 1482 with a 3.9 inch sig barrel the 1567 is with a 5 inch barsto for the P229. I have tried the Longshot data with a 180 grains and it was no problem at all. I just think the 12 grains is a little hot for the 135 and it sounds like you all do also. With 11 grains I get 1409 with the 135 still not a slow load and the accuracy is good. It's not up to the 357 sig in accuracy but still it's OK. I have never been one to trash my brass after 3 loadings but with the 40 and 12 grains of Longshot it would be a good idea. I have a 40 3.9 inch Bar-Sto on order in case I get to feeling stupid again and want to shoot 12 grains of Longshot in a Forty with a 135. Someone told me the FC brass is weak and a lot of it is marked FC,

Thanks,Keith
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Old April 2, 2006, 02:46 PM   #8
caz223
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I wouldn't use FC brass in ANYTHING.
I like win brass for .40, but whatever works....
According to my vague understanding of pressure and barrel length, longer barrel lengths INCREASE pressure. I found out the hard way when I used my hot loads that worked great in my 4 5/8" blackhawk, and used them in my 7 1/2" 657. Instant pressure signs. Flat primers, I mean FLAT. I decided to use gun specific loads for that application, and all my 7 1/2" guns get a different diet than my 4-6" guns. It seems that last few inches of barrel length really sent pressures up. That longer barrel put you over SAAMI standard pressures.
I personally wouldn't use the 12 grain load in a 5" barrel, there just too much that could go wrong. PLEASE sort your brass by headstamp and check for expansion. Use the brass that expands the least and you'll minimize the case failures, at least delay them.
With a 3.9 inch barsto, I prolly wouldn't hesitate to load it with the longshot hot loads, but I'd certainly make some changes in my loading process.
Like using virgin starline brass for your max loads.
Using a redding competition seater die. I just started using these, but they are AWESOME. They seat bullets straight, cause no bulges or ripples, seat bullets in undersized brass, extremely consistant OAL, and have a micrometer adjustment.
I recommend the Redding competition seater die wholeheartedly.
Instead of using a factory crimp die which can hide some of your problems, use a EGW undersize die. It sizes the brass down .001 smaller, and farther down. When used in conjunction with the redding competition seater die, it eliminates the need for the lee FC die. The lee FC die post sizes your brass. It also post sizes your bullet smaller inside your brass, reducing the neck tension, creating possible setback issues.
The LEE FC die serves no purpose (Other than crimping.) if you use the EGW undersize die and the Redding competition seater.
It was hard for me to give up the security blanket of a LEE FC die, but I now see the error of my ways.
You don't really need to give up the LEE FC die if you don't want to, as if you use the U die and the comp seater, the brass is sized smaller, and the bullet is square, so it really can't hurt much, but it might still be post-sizing a tiny bit, and it really doesn't need to....
Incidentally, I've had very few case failures over the years, they have been limited to a couple of headstamps. I remember factory blazer ammo in 9mm splitting from bottom to top, I remember FC in .40 showing incipient case head damage after their first firing, I saved all my failed brass over the years to remind me what to look for, and if I could only find it.... I know it's in a little tupperware container, but during the last move I must have misplaced it.
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Old April 2, 2006, 03:46 PM   #9
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I would also think about doing a few other things to your gun, such as a heavier recoil spring to slow down the unlocking. I'd also think about going to a G20 and KKM barrel, if you wanted a longer barrel, the extra slide mass of the G20 would unlock later, preventing the kind of damage you're describing, esp. if you upped the recoil spring a pound of two.
I hear Lone wolf is going to release their 6" longslide for use on the G20/21 frame. Combined with a 6" KKM barrel THIS would really be the gun for something like that. You could cut your load back quite a bit and still get 1500 FPS out of it.
Or you could just use a KKM 6" 10mm barrel and do it with less stress. Shooting 10mm ammo, of course.
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Old April 2, 2006, 04:18 PM   #10
kidcoltoutlaw
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Pressure problem was not with the 5 inch

In the 5 inch Bar-Sto I loaded the same case ten times at max thats 12 grains of Longshot with a 135 no problems at all. The problem was with the factory sig barrel of 3.9 inches. I use redding dies . I only use the Lee FCD because I don't have another crimp die and I don't seat and crimp in the same step. The Lee FCD and setback is SOMETHING I never thought about, Thanks. I don't think setback had anything to do with it. I load to a col of 1.138. I think it was a week case. Maybe a FC I have a lot of them.

I load the 357 sig also and the brass is so strong it caused me to drop my guard and think the 40 brass was in the same class. I load it to 1420 in a 3.9 and it has never been a problem. Most of my target loads in it run about 1300 real weak and will load for ever. They don't get reloaded to many times because I can't find it they go 15 feet or more,

Thanks,Keith
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Old April 2, 2006, 04:20 PM   #11
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Replied back over on THR. Definately do not use any more of the FC brass, it is likely the culprit in this case failure.
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Old April 2, 2006, 04:26 PM   #12
kidcoltoutlaw
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If I read it right

The FC brass is no good but the brass marked federal is ok is that right ??? I use a 22 pound recoil spring,

Thanks,Keith
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Old April 2, 2006, 09:10 PM   #13
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Yes, the ones with Federal spelled out are fine, FC marked brass is garbage.
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Old April 2, 2006, 09:46 PM   #14
kidcoltoutlaw
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Thanks

I do think you hit the nail on the head then. Like I said before I have a lot of it and have shot some of it to . I'm thinking I shot one round of it to many. I shoot a heavy load in my 357 SIG most brass is winchester or Speer and no matter how many times I reload it it never is a problem. I lose them fast enough that it does not seem to matter,

Thanks,Keith
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