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Old March 23, 2006, 10:12 PM   #51
Doug.38PR
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Old March 23, 2006, 10:14 PM   #52
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The Moderator closes my post about alien invasion scenarios, but leaves this open....why. What ever happened to free speach. Unless you can prove Aliens don't exist, it's just a question of probabilities.
Well it is their forum and they have the right to choose their rules.
Generally they like for threads to have some measure of possiblilty. I post a lot of threads that are improbable but not impossible.
While I can't disprove aliens in space, the fact is we have never seen one much less had an invasion of the planet. Even if we did, we don't even know they would have the Star Trek weapons that you described in your thread "phasers, disruptors, deflector shields, death rays, etc." It's far fetched fiction on top of fiction on top of fiction. It's like posting at thread about Night of the Living dead where a bunch of zombies attack you. Do you shoot them in the head? Or what if the Wolfman attacks you? Do you carry Silvertip HP Bullets? They like to do save Tactics and Training for realistic threads.
General Discussion forum would probably be better for the Alien Invasion senario. (BTW, I am a Sci Fi Fan....from Twilight Zone to Star Trek The Next Generation. I liked your thread. In General Discussion it probably would have had a lot of fun )
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Old March 24, 2006, 10:30 AM   #53
Glenn E. Meyer
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Attacks on the mall are certainly in the realm of possibility if you look at other countries, loonies that have done exactly that here and listened to presentations of possible terrorist scenarios.

My focus was not as much as the classic interventionist conundrum as to how you might interact with other armed citizens.

Some folks have advocated carrying a long arm in the car for such incidents. While discouraged by some, it is not out of the realm of possibility that we could see many focused attacks on public places.

The idea that a terrorist couldn't be late or that such folks might not stage outside is not realistic. At one school shooting, the kids staged outside and pulled the fire alarm and shot at those fleeing. That certainly could happen at a mall. Start a fire fight at one end and then have a team at the other to nail those exiting.

Thus, if you were faced with someone taking out a long arm - can you be sure that it is a good guy? I don't know.

If you did carry your long arm - would you then be at risk from arriving law enforcement - damn right you would be.

If I were a cop and arrived at a mall with teams of folks carrying ARs and shooting at each other - that would be just delightful.

As I pointed out, in our diverse society, one can't have any clear sign of who is the terrorist. I worried that a minority good guy would be at significant risk. As I pointed out, after Diallo, there are clear studies indicating that minorities are at risk. Interestingly, the risk seems more from civilians than trained LEOs.

So, God forbid that we face such firearms based terrorism in the USA. If a mall shoot starts, it's going to be a mess.

Do CHLs really deter as Lott suggested? Who really knows now?
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Old March 24, 2006, 11:30 AM   #54
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If you did carry your long arm - would you then be at risk from arriving law enforcement - damn right you would be.
If I were a cop and arrived at a mall with teams of folks carrying ARs and shooting at each other - that would be just delightful.

Glenn,

Think about this and please I do not in any way, shape or form agree with this way of thinking but one has to give this some consideration.

When the "Brady Bunch" reads this and I'm quite certain they will, they're argument will be, if all guns were banned we wouldn't have to worry about the goodguys running around being mistaken for BG's by the police.

Yeah right, all the goodguys would be dead but at least they wouldn't be a threat to the police!
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Old March 24, 2006, 12:02 PM   #55
Glenn E. Meyer
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I suppose that antigunners could read the forum and pick out way more ridiculous postings.

However, discussing such issues has to be done somewhere. The internet has given us an open forum.

If we discuss some possible problems in gun use - yes, somebody might quote them. That's life.

Should we ban scenarios as folks chest pound to a ridiculous level in some?

There are far more crackpot stuff in gun forums than this thread.

You have a point but I think it is a risk that goes with the terrority of open discussion.
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Old March 24, 2006, 12:22 PM   #56
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Glenn,
I was not suggesting that discussing issues such as this should be banned. The antigunners have probably already thought of what I suggested might happen.

I was just thinking about how ridiculous their platform of "ban all guns" actually is. Look what happened in England. Not even the cops have guns, only the BG's do!

Last edited by riverrat66; March 24, 2006 at 02:44 PM.
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Old March 24, 2006, 07:12 PM   #57
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Id dial 911 and leave , I dont dial 1911 unless I have to !
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Old March 27, 2006, 02:16 AM   #58
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1st scenerio being that i'm alone or have my wife with me, I would get to safety and make sure my family is out of harms way, of course my wife or myself would call 911 next. What to do next is interesting, first thought would be self preservation, besides my family needs a father/husband, I am the primary provider and protector and need to be around to continue doing so for as long as I can. But thinking of all the possible victims inside turns my stomach. Being armed and not attempting to help in some manner doesn't seem right. We all lobby for the 2nd amendment and the right to carry and we speak about wanting the oppurtunity do defend ourselves and our fellow citizens. This would be the time if ever there was one. Now I would never choose to go up against AR-15's with just a handgun, but think of all the people in the mall who are completely unarmed. At least we have a fighting chance. Dont get me wrong I am NOT thinking of getting into an open shootout against longarms, I would conceil myself and look for the oppurtunities to take shots and save lifes. And for the record I am not trying to be any type of hero, I am the farthest thing from it and surely I'd be scared to death. But the only thing that scares me more, would be to do nothing. I dont think i could face my family or live with myself for that matter. And as far as waiting for the cops to arrive, forget it. By the time they get there it will be all over, besides they wont enter the mall knowing the BG's have AR-15's. Theyll wait outside till it turns into a hostage situation or the BG have finished their shooting spree then commited suicide.

2nd scenerio, family is on other end, I would call my wifes cell asked they got to safety, if not I would go get em, either by exiting the mall an entering thru another entrance or by running in and out of stores. Somehow I would make every attempt to save my family. If it meant coordinating with my wife to run to safety while I engage the BG' into a firefight to distract them so be it. If I dont attempt to protect my family no matter the odds then i dont deserve one, much less a gun.

I guess I will never really know unless it were to happen, hope it never does, I just hope I'm able to think straight if it does.

I shouldnt be up this late, I start ramblin, goodnight all.
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Old March 27, 2006, 10:26 AM   #59
Glenn E. Meyer
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Many departments have change procedures in active shooter cases. In the last mall shooter in Washington state, they formed up and went after the shooter quickly.

However, not to beat a dead horse, the scenario is more complicated than whether you charge in.

I specifically wanted to focus on how you deal with seeing someone unlimbered a long arm and heading for the mall also.

What if the person in question looks like a group that you might think is more likely to be terrorist? There is a large literature now on racial factors in LEO shootings and civilian evaluations of violence based on race.
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Old March 27, 2006, 11:16 AM   #60
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my wife (you meant girlfriend, right?) is at the other end of the mall with her kid? these bozo's with the ar-s would be dead already, or she would be... ain't NOBODY endangering her kids unless she's dead already... and i feel sorry for anyone who tries endangering them while she is still breathing...
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Old March 28, 2006, 02:02 PM   #61
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Glenn:

Yea, I've been following this one with interest. As always, you've come up with an interesting situation with lots of twists and turns. I will address myself to just a little of what I've read.

To begin, I have tried to get over the hero complex that plagued me during my youth. My primary concern is my family, generally my wife as both of my boys are grown and usually doing their own thing. Many folks have opined that their first action would be to contact their spouse by phone to make sure that he/she had successfully found safety. Not a bad first step. However, I have determined that I am much happier, and so is she, if we are together. I don't see many opportunities for us to be in separate places in North Star or Rolling Oaks (local shopping malls). Before the flames start, it's a decision we made. We go together because neither of us likes to go at all, so why not do it together and both be unhappy. And it cuts down on the time spent in those God forsaken places because we hurry through the ordeal so as not to prolong the misery. For what its worth except for when we're at work we are generally together enjoying or not enjoying whatever is going on. Most of the time that involves guns or fishing, sometime both...ever shot carp?

As you said, your interest is in what to do about AR-15 stranger guy in the parking lot. For me, not to complicated. If the guy ain't in uniform or I/we don't know him, I'm/we're going to ground and do our very best to make sure he don't know I/we exist. I won't risk my wife's safety on an unknown. I'll do everything in my power, whether armed or not, to keep her safe.

So, there it is. I think there are way too many different "what ifs" in this thread to really come up with a "this will take care of everything" kind of a game plan. Priority number one make sure my wife is safe. If that means we stay joined at the hip most of the time that's okay, it works for me, I kind of like it that way. She's fun to be with and smell a lot better than my other friends...


See you around town. Don't forget the snub gun shoot.


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Old March 28, 2006, 07:59 PM   #62
Glenn E. Meyer
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Thanks, Dave - if I get through May - then my time frees and we will get those snubbies shooting.

I've been think once I was past the Fiesta match to do a standard IDPA with my 642 for grins.

Since I carry that as much as my Glock 19 - I would like to get some trigger time with it. At the NTI - we had J frames and they were quite the little guy when the SHTF. However, I did find them useful.

My thoughts about the AR guy was that, I have no idea who he is. Thus, I agree to be low profile from him. Also, I was worried that any AR good guy who wasn't caucasian has a significant risk of being shot on site in a terrorist situation. I've read quite a few studies and simulation of such situations that suggest the differential risk based on race.
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Old March 29, 2006, 09:12 AM   #63
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I am Hispanic and also worry about the possibility of being confused with the bad guy. Thats one reason I purchased a concealed weapon permit holders badge. It looks like an officers badge and the hope is the if I am ever forced to pull my gun, this badge will cause the responding officers or off duty officers or fellow ccp holders to think before shooting.

It is a well founded fear for all but especially minorities.
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Old March 29, 2006, 10:07 AM   #64
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I would call my wife on her cell phone. If my wife is able she will have left the mall. I will exit the mall as quickly and safely as possible and basically make my way to the other side of the mall from the outside. Nothing I do will require handgun tatics or training. One handgun against mulitiple ARs is only gonna get me killed, very quickly, and leave my family without me. Any mall will have many entrances and exits, if I retreat enough I will eaisly be able to find one and make my way to the other side from the outside where I will find my family outside running across the parking lot.
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