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Old January 3, 2006, 11:33 PM   #1
USP45usp
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YEAH BABY... err, Ma'am

I agree 100% with Claire Wolfe in her article. Dang stright, we've gone WAY to far in the removal of gun rights for certain people just because the "government" deems them a felon.

I don't have permission to post the article (then again, I didn't ask) but if you read starting on page 32 of the February 2006 SWAT magazine, then you know what I'm talking about.

Would make for good debate.

Wayne
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Old January 3, 2006, 11:54 PM   #2
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nevermind, just thought it would be good debate.

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Old January 5, 2006, 12:36 PM   #3
Dust_Devil
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The February issue has not arrived in my mailbox yet.

Maybe soon. Maybe today??
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Old January 5, 2006, 06:51 PM   #4
Jart
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Quote:
just thought it would be good debate.
Well, she was talking about non-violent felons.

We might have to beat the bushes pretty thoroughly to find someone to debate you. Argueing that one should be prohibited from owning firearms for life due to "mooning" someone is a pretty tough position to adopt.

Lautenberg may take up the gauntlet, but I don't know if he subscribes to SWAT.

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Old January 7, 2006, 10:51 AM   #5
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The article really shows that in this modern day society that punishments do not necessarily fit the crime and that there can be more force used than necessary to deal with certain incidents.
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Old January 11, 2006, 01:17 PM   #6
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Well, Dust Devil, it looks like you got your copy. I think my postal route goes through the Bermuda Triangle at some point, as SWAT tends to run a bit late getting here. Ah, well, maybe today.

Wadda ya know? The Triangle knows when it's being talked about. It came tonight!

Ms. Wolfe's article was good, but Mr. Wheat's was better. It's refreshing to get a "no shot after the clock is stopped" comment. Especially in light of a recent article from a magazine "by LEOs for LEOs" that talked about exactly such actions in a very different light.

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Old January 13, 2006, 08:51 PM   #7
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USP45usp...hey, it looks like we were at the Griff at the same time. I was with the 416th SP (LE) squadron.
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Old January 13, 2006, 09:04 PM   #8
joab
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Argueing that one should be prohibited from owning firearms for life due to "mooning" someone is a pretty tough position to adopt.
Stick around you'll be surprised at the number of people here who will argue the point.

Do the crime, do your time, get a do over

If an adult cannot be trusted with a gun he cannot be trusted on the street unsupervised
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Old January 13, 2006, 10:52 PM   #9
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I agree that non-violent felons should have a chance to get thier gun rights back.
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Old January 15, 2006, 05:21 AM   #10
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IMO too many crimes are felonies that shouldn't be, or shouldn't be crimes at all.

I'm a firm believer that "your right to throw a punch stops where my nose begins"... if you aren't hurting anyone besides yourself, do whatever you want. Just don't expect me to pick up the tab if you do something stupid and get hurt.

And the instant your stupidity DOES interfere with me and mine, I should have the right to squash you like a grape.
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Old January 19, 2006, 03:20 PM   #11
hossdaniels
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come on fellas, the vast majority of these people have no business owning any firearms. They have already shown their lack of good judgement by putting themselves in that position. I agree that the ones who want firearms will probably get them anyway but we shouldn't help them out.
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Old January 27, 2006, 12:57 PM   #12
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Hoss, I would have agreed with you a few years ago.

Now, after having worked in law enforcement for several years, having studied the matter long enough to have obtained a BS in Criminal Justice, and having moderated on this forum since 2000, I'll tell you that I'm not so sure.

Do you have a CHL and carry legally? If so (here in Texas), and you accidentally step into your son's school while carrying, you're committing a felony. Say you have a CHL, and you go to dinner with friends at a little restaurant, also known as a Bar & Grill. If it's more "bar" than "grill"-- meaning that 51% of its profits come from on-premises-consumption alcoholic drink sales than from other sources, you're committing a felony ("Places Where Weapons Prohibited") to be carrying in there, while it would be as legal as Christmas if 49% or less of their sales were from hard drinks.

Here in Texas, you're criminally responsible as an adult at 17. If, on your 17th birthday (when I was a junior in high school), you and your buddies take a joy-ride in somebody's car without permission, you've committed UUMV, or Unauthorized Use Of A Motor Vehicle, which is a felony. You would have a grown man of 55 be disallowed from protecting his family for some stupid prank he pulled when he was a junior in high school?

Or (and here's a can of worms) then there's the ubiquitous drug issue. While I don't want to get into a legality/morality-of-drugs debate, I'll again put that dumb 17 year old kid in front of you. Out of total naivete, one night with his buddies, he experiments. He has a few beers (misdemeanor). He puffs a marijuana joint or two (midemeanor). He finally gives in to his "friends'" pressure, and tries a line of coke (FELONY!). Even if he never tries it again, he's committed a felony. Check this out-- even if he never tries the coke, but holds it in his possession for a while while he decides what to do with it, he's committing a felony, for the possession. 40 years later, he still doesn't have his gun rights. Crazy stuff.

Here's the funny thing, though-- disarming the dangerous felons is redundant, because we already have laws on the books disallowing you from possing a gun if you've been convicted of a violent crime or assault.
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Old January 29, 2006, 04:37 PM   #13
USP45usp
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Hoss,

I've lived here without knowing about a cousin for years. You see, he was in prison. He is 35, two years younger then myself.

He went to jail due to drugs. He was with the wrong crowd when he was younger and he went to jail, he did his time.

Many times over. This was his third time in the big house. Now he's out. And I've enbraced him as my own brother. I like him, I trust him, I would gladly hand him a gun to be my backup in any situation.

You see, I've decided to treat him as a Human Being, and as Family, and as my very own Brother. I know his past, so what, he messed up. That doesn't give me or any other person or government the right to treat him as a second class citizen devoid of any rights.

He is a person. A person that messed up in the past and is now trying to get on the right side of the tracks. In prison he took the time to learn welding skills and that landed him a job on the outside. He is busting his ass to help me with this house and with other things.

But he cannot be invited to join in with my favorite hobby. Even though I would trust him with a loaded gun in his hands, the government has said that his is a second class American and he cannot. I feel that he would greatly benefit from the shooting sports, to learn control and to learn the joy of such, but he can't. I feel that he would be a great friend and shooting buddy to enjoy the weekends with.

You may not see the inherite(sp) good in some people, I do. This person messed up and now he's looking back and thinking to himself.. why was I so stupid. Yet, because we are always looking at the past, we have destroyed this man's future, with laws and maybe his life, with law's.

Please don't take this wrong, but I would trust my cousin at my side, with a loaded firearm, more so than I would trust you. Maybe it's because I've met my cousin, face to face and haven't had the honor of being able to do so with you. But I will say this, my cousin who just got out a couple of months ago is busting his balls to work, to be a member of society, and just want's to be an American again but the laws and folks like yourself, just won't give him the chance to do so.

Again, my apologizes if I've offended you but I think that our judgements upon others are unfounded and wrong. If they prove themselves to be incapable of dealing with the real world, then it's up to us, the civilian, to ensure that they aren't around to do so. It's not up to the LEO's or to pols who think they are in charge.

Wayne
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Old January 30, 2006, 06:40 AM   #14
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Quote:
come on fellas, the vast majority of these people have no business owning any firearms. They have already shown their lack of good judgement by putting themselves in that position. I agree that the ones who want firearms will probably get them anyway but we shouldn't help them out.
I'll add my post, in the same flavor as Long Path's.
Suppose you live in CA. Nevermind why, you just do, alright?
You drive down to the school, to pick up your son/daughter from kindergarten. You forget to remove the Leatherman multitool from your belt before doing so. The principal sees this, and calls the school resource officer.
Guess what? You're a felon. No more voting for you, and you'll never legally own or carry a gun again, since the funds for restoration of civil rights have been removed.
Over a Leatherman.
How about this?
You live in Oregon, and have a CHL. When you pay for your meal at a restaurant, your CHL card drops to the floor, unnoticed. On the way home, you get pulled over for a burned out tailight you didn't know about. Being a helpful sort, you tell the officer you have a CHL, and what would he like you to do. He asks to see your card. Oops! You're a felon! For losing a piece of plastic, and not knowing it.
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Old January 30, 2006, 10:21 AM   #15
Dave P
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You live in Oregon, and have a CHL. When you pay for your meal at a restaurant, your CHL card drops to the floor, unnoticed. On the way home, you get pulled over for a burned out tailight you didn't know about. Being a helpful sort, you tell the officer you have a CHL, and what would he like you to do. He asks to see your card. Oops! You're a felon! For losing a piece of plastic, and not knowing it.


Wow!! That is insane. I think the FLA law says they can fine you $25 if you don't have your permit with you.

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Old January 31, 2006, 12:10 PM   #16
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If George W. Bush had been arrested for what is his self-admitted use of some illegal substances - even that he recovered and became President would not count, he couldn't own a gun.
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Old February 10, 2006, 06:49 PM   #17
hossdaniels
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Sorry if i offended anyone and i can see your point, still no one is going to search you dropping your kid off at school, or when you are eating at a resturant.
I still think the majority of felons shouldn't carry weapons. I'm sure some nice people have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, but like it or not you are judged by the decisions you make, and you have to learn to live the with consequences those actions bring.
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Old February 12, 2006, 03:21 AM   #18
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You'd be surprised, Hoss. I work in LE and I've seen 17-18 year old boys end up with felony charges for having box cutters in their cars for their after school job. You cannot rely on common sense and "intent of the law" savin' your ass these days. Common sense rarely comes into play when dealing with school boards and administrators.
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Old February 12, 2006, 09:14 AM   #19
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ElDiablo, We really should take a fresh look at the zero tolerance mentality in our schools here in Georgia!

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Old February 12, 2006, 06:21 PM   #20
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I couldn't agree more. Common sense and intent of the law is lost on the school systems. They don't have/use common sense for the most part, and they certainly don't teach it. Not sure it can be taught, but it can certainly be encouraged.

Oh, and I'm now Rainbow Six again. I signed on under ElDiablo because I couldn't find my user name. Haven't been here since around 2001. But I am/was ElDiablo above.
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Old February 24, 2006, 04:03 PM   #21
Long Path
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Then I'll be closing down El Diablo, R6.


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Old February 26, 2006, 12:27 PM   #22
Harley Quinn
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Supervision is always there

Joab mentioned:
If an adult cannot be trusted with a gun he cannot be trusted on the street unsupervised....

Very naive statement. Or I am not reading it correctly.

I felt that maybe the article was a wolf in sheeps clothing. Names were mentioned that probably, should have not been.

HQ
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Old February 27, 2006, 10:43 AM   #23
erh
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IMHO - Felon = Felon... It'd be hard for me to concur w/ your post; but suffice it to say that "I am so glad we American's have the right to speak our minds!" My opinion is not necessarily fair, but U.S. Military and L.E. service have likely just given me a different "Take" on fairness..; could just be thick skin..!
Anyway, nice post Non-the-less.

Have a good one,

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Old February 27, 2006, 01:34 PM   #24
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I don't want to hijack the thread, but I think that a large part of this is the downfall of the justice system and the legislature's poor attempt to make up for it.

I think the downward spiral goes like this:

Legislature makes too many laws.
Justice System (JS) gets overloaded.
In order to cope with overloading, JS begins to plea bargin the more "trivial" crimes.
Plea bargaining becomes the easy way out and becomes more widespread.
Legislature, responding to public outrage, ups the ante on more and more crimes.
JS, coming across more and more "trivial felons", pushes plea bargaining even further.

I've oversimplified it, and I'm sure I don't have it all correct and there are other points of view, but I think that I've vaguely outlined the decline and fall of the justice system. It's kind of like the whole car sales industry. They don't expect to sell the cars for full sticker, but they have to mark it up really high to still have something to work with once the consumer gets the discount they expect.
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Old February 28, 2006, 09:19 PM   #25
Harley Quinn
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I have to agree

Techbrute I think you are pretty close to the scenario.

Some times they have the right to lower it to a misd. and then they are not a felon. I think even misd domestic disputes with gun involved is a no no. Or battery on someone is getting stiffer.

Justice system is over loaded, criminals/crime are/is rampant.

Hallelujah, we are on our way.
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