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Old February 11, 2006, 10:42 PM   #26
bruchi
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15% versus intravenous Hollywood?

15%

A patron got pistolwhiped, that means 2 things are facts, one, at least one BG is armed (odds are then all are carrying) and two, there are bystanders around.

READ MY LIPS - That is exactly the situation where you don't want to get in a shootout! PERIOD.

WORST CASE SCENARIO is the smart thing always in this situations.

Seems that everyone behind a computer is some dead shot battle scarred killer to whom the word flinching is not part of their vocabulary. This ain't Nintendo or XBOX, extra lives are not available neither to you or the other barbershop patrons.

I'll repeat myself, trained LEO's that have a 95% accuracy rate at the range on average drop that accuracy to 15% in situations where "real" gunplay is involved.

15%

LEOS are folks that most probably like many here will never have to use a gun for real but that are trained to do so and that day in and day out are out there dealing with a lot of unwelcomed situations that have to count for something WTSHTF.

15%

Any working LEO, even if all he does is deal with domestic issues has a thicker skin that all of us cyber Rambos! Again 15%. that makes those nice 10 yard 3-5" groups (be real for once) on a non moving target become a 20-30" foray of shots and the target not only moves, it shoots back!


15%

You are in a public place with innocent bystanders around, that's collateral damage that means nothing to the BG's but that should matter to you more that getting the opportunity to play hero.

15%

They are not raping your wife/child, all they want is your money, not all of it, just what you have on you at the moment, so they pistolwhip some idiot that argues with an armed BG, face it, he asked for it. Some Tiger Balm will cure that and he can latter, if you keep your cool, "tell it" his way to the grandchildren.

15%

You have 2 minutes, first hide gun/extra magazines in a place where it will be available just in case there's no choice, like they start to shoot up everyone for no reason, also so it will not end in the hands of a criminal and lastly so they won't think I am a LEO in plain clothes.

15%

When they come to me I very nicely hand them the cash. Another good idea is to hide car/house keys. If I had the time I hide also the credit cards and if they insist on them I give them just the one that is a debit card used for online purchases so it is always kept with very little cash in case of identity theft.

Being prepared pays.

15%

Make sure to take a good look at them so you can give the LEOS a good description.

15%

So you have another point of reference on how idiotic it would be to go blasting away read on, there's a local 4 day advanced defense course given here, most of the guys that take this course are the very advanced shooters, exactly those guys you see always at the range and wish you could shoot that well.

15%

One of the exercises given there to make evident how hard it is to actually hit something under duress is as follows, the instructor puts all but one of the students on a room that leads to a open area, 40 feet form this room's door a clear and unobstructed static 4 x 5 FEET target is placed.

15%

We all can hit a static 4x5 FEET target 40 feet away with 5 rounds on our favorite handgun right?

15%

Don't be so sure, the leftout student is also out there safely to the side, also 40 feet away but he is not in harm's way and armed with a paintball gun, you exit the room and try to hit the 4x5 FEET target before you get nailed with the paintball, ocassionally and not on every class one of this very good shooters nails the 4x5 FEET but always after getting hit with the painball and never on the first round, this not on harms way of a real bullet but in harm's way of a paintball round, they say they sting a bit but do not kill.

15%

So keep your cool, no bragging rights will be earned but you will not only save your life and the life of the other innocent bystanders around but if you where luckly to survive and prevail you will also save a lot of money on law fee's and headaches plus time lost from work and loved ones because BG's relatives will sue you big time, sleazy lawyers will line up to make your life on their behalf a living hell, your gun will be taken as evidence, that could be a long time and then, this is rare but also possible, you get to watch your back 24/7 for the BG's friends and relatives that might want some payback and will just shoot you or worst a loved one in the back.

15%

Of course as pointed before if they start to clean up to leave no witnesses, or if some terrorist/s (local ones or the imported kind) go for it within shooting distance then blast away, you probably will still get killed but at least you'll take some of them with you. ey maybe it will be your luckiest day and you will make it to the emergency room in time.

15%

Yes the 15% applies to BGS too but they have the advantage, there are more of them and they don't care who is in their way and maybe they do have some actual previous practice shooting other BGS or getting shot at.

15%

Someone other than them is going to get shot and this can include you in case you don't care for others. There are times where you got to shoot your way out but some cash lost + some idiot getting pistolwhiped is not one in my book.

What was that accuracy percentage again?
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Old February 12, 2006, 12:19 PM   #27
Runsalone
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bruchi,

Outstanding Sir, We would all do well to consider heavily the info he brought up. Heavily!

Really, were talking bulletes here, the ones that fly through the air and remove chunks of you if they touch you, this is not the matrix, none of us are dirty Harry, and collateral lives are more important than living out some fantasy. Chances are more than high that if you draw a gun against a gun..........read: ONE gun!!.......You are going to get shot all to hell, much less drawing against two.

Think: What would I do if I DIDNT have my weapon, and try that first! When all else fails and you KNOW you or yours are going to DIE or be maimed, then theres nothing to lose and everything to gain. Then Fight, and fight viciously!

Most likely when its time to use a weapon, there will be no other course of action to consider. It will be Die or Kill, Maybe both, But better to fight.


Ill get off my soapbox now Starting to feel like the student trying to tell a roomfull of teachers how it is. Im no Seal/Ninja/Ranger/Sniper. Just thinking out loud. (usually how I get in trouble!! )
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Old February 12, 2006, 12:59 PM   #28
XavierBreath
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I would normally take the conservative approach.

The problem is, with the pat downs, your weapon will be surrendered if you do not use it. After one patron has been pistol whipped, a disregard for life has been demonstrated. When a gun is discovered on your person, you can be sure the BGs will focus in on you and probably kill you. You can at the least expect life altering injury.

As I stated, in my barber shop, I can be certain of at least one other armed friendly, possibly more. I know at least one other person will quickly be shooting. The scenerio presented has two BGs. In my barber shop, that evens the odds to one on one, possibly three on two or even better odds if one of the local cops happens to be waiting for his haircut.

Perhaps I made the mistake of imagining this scenerio in my own barber shop, but that's the way I see it. I am darned near certain that if this occured where I get my hair cut, I would not be the only armed citizen responding.
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Old February 12, 2006, 01:03 PM   #29
model 25
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Everybody in the barber shop has chosen his way of life. The BGs are willing to kill to get money. The patrons either carry or they don't. What each is willing to do depends on the opertunity of the circumstances. Good people look for the opertunity to do what comes their way.

You get into trouble and you know nothing of self defense then you made the decision to go unarmed and so the circumstances are your choice, you made it. The criminals on the street that need drugs and will kill you to get them, we as a society make the choice and we live with it.

Young punks have no fear cause they have nothing to lose. Old guys have no fear because they have had as much as their going too. It's a society thing and when you recognize the people that cause trouble you should carry yourself in a manner to deal with it. Will you win? Good guys lose too.

Make yourself research all you can about defense. Know the risk of each weapon they carry and what the best defense is against the attack. A well rounded approach is needed in guns and martial arts along with the study of people and how they react to violence. Learn tricks that you will win with and above all pay attention to your surroundings. Test yourself and your courage all the time and you will build courage or know your limitations.

What you or I say we would do means nothing without the training to back it up. Training gives you options, if your too lazy to train and don't want to fight back then just go with the flow

25
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Old February 12, 2006, 11:50 PM   #30
bruchi
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xavier

Seems you just refuse to get it, I certainly hope you are just another that just fantazises about being the big hero.

By all means you don''t want your gun to be found, if only so it will not end in the hands of a criminal, If you have ime to pull it out to shoot you probably have time to pull it out and hide it.

There's a friendly to back you up, have you seen this person shoot before, and not at the range but in a life-death situation. Have you at least some indication this guy can deliver the goods?

Is this by any chance some older gentlemant with a snubby 38 in his pocket, 20 year old bullets very nice man but blind beyond 10 feet?

Some guy got pistolwipped, again they are not raping yoru wife, it is just about money.

This are just an excuses to justify your fantasy...

As someone here pointed out, you fight when in ultimate harm's way and as another also pointed out, if yo have such a hankerin' to shoot it up join the Armed Forces or the Police Department. But don't put someone's dad, brother, daughter in the path of one of a bullet just cause you got a CCW and shoot at paper at the range.

Stop fantazising, turn the computer off and try this, go to IPSC matches, hell, join in, then after qualifying, blast away at 30+ targets in seconds and realize that one, every shot you miss could cost you your life or someone elses, two, any shot you fire could hit someone else and not necesarily a BG and thirdly, every shot you fire will be returned 1, 2, 3 times back at you.

It takes seconds in a shootout to fire tens, probably even hundreds of shots depending on the amount of shooters involved, pretending that all of the ones that will nail the intended target will be yours and your shooting pals and that all the ones shot by the BGS will miss everyone else is moronic. Sorry but I cannot find another word for it.
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Old February 12, 2006, 11:57 PM   #31
XavierBreath
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bruchi,
Since you decided to address me directly, I will address you directly. You do not know me. I do not know you. I respect your opinion. I do not expect you to respect mine, but I do expect you to respect me. Personal attacks are prohibited here.

Have a nice day reflecting on that. Sometimes the best route is to agree to disagree.
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Old February 13, 2006, 06:36 AM   #32
prime8
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Play the rabbitt/ Be the Fox

Tough sitrep! Having time to think about it I would fake a heart attack, trying to pose a situation they havnt prepared for, hopefully causing intrest in me and away from the patrons. If they both investigate they are both in close range, and unprepared for shots to come from an otherwise helpless person doubled over on the floor. Just an idea....
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